Posted on 04/21/2020 10:57:21 AM PDT by TECTopcat
More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study By MARILYNN MARCHIONE
This Monday, April 6, 2020 file photo shows an arrangement of hydroxychloroquine pills in Las Vegas. According to a study released on Tuesday, April 21, 2020, the malaria drug widely touted by President Donald Trump for treating the new coronavirus showed no benefit in an analysis of its use in U.S. veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers report. ( Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine, either.
Researchers did not track side effects, but noted hints that hydroxychloroquine might have damaged other organs. The drug has long been known to have potentially serious side effects, including altering the heartbeat in a way that could lead to sudden death.
Earlier this month, scientists in Brazil stopped part of a hydroxychloroquine study after heart rhythm problems developed in one-quarter of people given the higher of two doses being tested.
Many doctors have been leery of the drug.
At the University of Wisconsin, Madison, I think were all rather underwhelmed at whats been seen among the few patients there whove tried it, said Dr. Nasia Safdar, medical director of infection control and prevention.
Patients asked about it soon after Trump started promoting its use, but now I think that people have realized we dont know if it works or not and needs more study, said Safdar, who had no role in the VA analysis.
The NIH and others have more rigorous tests underway.
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Marilynn Marchione can be followed on Twitter: @MMarchioneAP
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The Associated Press Health and Science Department receives support from the Howard Hughes Medical Institutes Department of Science Education. The AP is solely responsible for all content.
(Excerpt) Read more at apnews.com ...
The AssPress is worse than CNN.
Thanks again. Read through the pdf once over, one criticism: they mention tests: standard laboratory. Now we know there are umpteen tests out there with results all over the place this is a mistake. The really need to specify WHICH tests. Did all the patients get the same tests or did they use several? Which groups got which tests? This failure just throws everything into question.
Also, on the face of it being retrospective doesnt bother me but the numbers are troubling. We know the CFR is somewhere between 0.5% and 5%. An order of magnitude, perhaps but both numbers are pretty small. We know that Plaquenil alone in healthy people can be expected to kill around 0.05 to 0.08% and if it isnt ten times safer than CHloroquine even higher. So the Number Needed to Treat is going to be well over 100 patients in each group or Plaquenil is an even worse drug than I thought.
Since they were comparing treatment regimens they made no effort to determine their treated vs Untreated fatality rate. This study isnt large enough to do that so we dont really have a handle on whether they reached the NNT or not but their Confidence Intervals clearly suggest a statistical outcome that supports rejection of the null hypothesis ie, that the drugs work (rejection meaning the drugs dont work). It will be real interesting to see the criticisms of real Infectious Disease doctors. UVA and SOuth Carolina Med are pretty prestigious institutions. I cant imagine they would put their names on trash.
Also they reference their statistical method, ANOVA I am familiar with the Fine and Gray method for addressing bias I am totally unfamiliar with offhand.
This paper would seem to be bad for the drug treatment group. Lets see how it stands up to criticism. As above i have a couple minor ones. It should be interesting to spend more time reading through the details.
Can we all simply wait for the real trials to be completed?
If the docs want to use it they can. I’ve heard this on the morning rounding calls over my wife’s shoulder. It IS being used.
So, if the docs want to use it...most of them have.
But, an accurate, standardized, clinical trial has not been completed yet in the US.
Once that comes out, let the chips fall where they may.
But this hysteria about handing this out like Pez is not helping and it spreads misinformation.
Even though the AssPress propagandist kept as much relevant information out of the article as she could.
I'm going to go to her Twitter feed after this and I WILL find out that she's Resistance.
Well here you are again
I am a doctor on the frontline in critical care and I have seen impressive turnaround within 12 hours of administration. Also not that this study does not appears to include azthromycin combo
the MSM very quickly swept that under the rug.
Well, don’t they know all the uneducated and inexperienced scientists and doctors on FR know better?? /s
Every single person who has been interviewed said that the drug combo worked..because Trump mentioned it, it must be disproven, that is how the commie left works..they want a vaccine because vaccine make BILLIONS of dollars and this drug is cheap
Of course they do, I figured that out a long time ago..the commie left LOVES this virus because if it kills Trump supporters its a win
While I share your opinion of the AP, this is a report of a study. The study is available, and I don’t see where the AP is misrepresenting the results, so it seems we should be focusing on the study itself, not the AP.
There’s a link in the article.
I wouldnt believe AP if they told me water is wet.
AMEN!
Meta-analysis based on VA hospital admissions.
No mention of zinc.
Also, no mention of why some got HC, some got HC + AZ, some got AZ and some none at all.
If only the most severe got HC and or AZ then the cohorts cant be compared.
The fact that these were people admitted to the hospital suggests that the disease was well advanced.
“But, I am not surprised that it ended up not really helping”
WTF! What about the NY Dr who has treated well over 1000 patients with Hydroxychlorine + Zinc and had a successful result in almost every one of them. What about the French study of now over 2000 patients which also reported amazing results using the HCQ but without Zinc (apparently the French have a high zinc diet)?
You read ONE study which evens says in it that it “wasn’t vigorous” and you come to the conclusion that the drug doesn’t work?
Really?
Exactly. The drug has potential, but it needs to be studied PROPERLY. Multiple peer reviewed experiments, with the data out for everyone to see.
The President mentions it has potential, and his opponents accuse him endangering people with quack cures and try to ban it, and too many of his supporters tout it as a miracle cure. It simply has potential.
The whole thing has been ridiculous.
Worth repeating:Bring Out Your DeadNo Z pack or zinc too?
Apparently no vitamins C and D either, and HOCQ very late in the game when the patients were already quite, quite ill.
And I might add, first paragraph conflates the known side effects of chloroquine with the much safer HYDROXYchloquine.
Therefore Orange Man Bad.
Post to me or FReep mail to be on/off the Bring Out Your Dead ping list.
The purpose of the Bring Out Your Dead ping list (formerly the Ebola ping list) is very early warning of emerging pandemics, as such it has a high false positive rate.
The false positive rate was 100%.
At some point we may well have a high mortality pandemic, and likely as not the Bring Out Your Dead threads will miss the beginning entirely.
*sigh* Such is life, and death...
If a quarantine saves just one child's or one old farts life, it's worth it.
After a quick read:
this is a retrospective study, not a controlled test. The groups differed significantly in risk factors, with the drug given to those with the higher risk. The correlation of outcomes with the drug is therefore due to “reverse causality.” Essentially, the risk factors caused the use of the drug.
In a mess like this, you would need some identifying variables:
Y = f(X, a, b, c, p, r, s)
X = f(Y, a, b, c, t, u, v)
The variables p, r, s (exogenous to the Y, X process) enable you to identify the effect of Y on X.
And, the variables t, u, v (also exogenous to the Y, X process) enable you to identify the effect of X on Y.
In English, sort of, something that effects Y that is not itself an effect of Y or X, can enable you to determine the effect of Y on X.
As an example, if certain VA hospital didn’t administer HC to anybody, that would really help to identify cause and effect.
It actually does include the combo. One very legit criticism is since its the VA there were so few females they threw them out. Which is OK but any conclusions one may draw fro this paper should be limited to males. Which is a standard criticism of VA studies.
Then post your findings... There are plenty of Drs who have said they are not having any luck with it..and others that do.
oh since you have finally starting treating actual Covid patients who could DIE.. are you telling them they just have a cold when you they test positive?
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