Charlottesville won’t be celebrating Jefferson’s birthday

NBC29.com ^ | 3/2/20

[Kalamata]

>>fieldmarshaldj wrote: “Mr. Jefferson has more in common with these communist pigs in Charlottesville...”

>>jeffersondem wrote: “And what of George Washington, James Madison, George Mason - communists pigs also? And what of the seventy percent of the signers of the Declaration of Independence - communists pigs also? And what of the victors of the War Between the States who settled into using their power to enforce de jure and de facto racial segregation in the South and de facto and de jure racial segregation in the North - communists pigs also? And what of the segregated U.S. Armed forces that stormed ashore on D-Day . . . I will continue to work with you until you blurt out: the election of Barack Obama was the first time you were proud of this country.”

You forgot Chief Justice John Marshall. I have read that Marshall proposed to free one of his slaves if that slave promised to leave the country. Does anyone have a reference for that?

Almost forgot. Abraham Lincoln’s Idol, the crony-capitalist Henry Clay, was also a slave-master.

Mr. Kalamata

[DoodleDawg]

You forgot Chief Justice John Marshall. I have read that Marshall proposed to free one of his slaves if that slave promised to leave the country. Does anyone have a reference for that?

That was in his last will and testament. The slave was Marshall's personal manservant and somewhat elderly at Marshall's death. The will gave him the choice of freedom and passage to Liberia or continued bondage under the ownership of the Marshall offspring of his choice. I don't know what the final decision was.

Like most Southerner slave-owners before him and after him, Marshall may have given lip-service to the evils of slavery but when push came to shove opposed any sort of abolition movement.

[DoodleDawg]

Your chronic habit of twisting not only my words, but outright ignoring them altogether, is quite worthy of a left-winger who cannot win an argument.

It's what they excel at.

[woodpusher]

You forgot Chief Justice John Marshall. I have read that Marshall proposed to free one of his slaves if that slave promised to leave the country. Does anyone have a reference for that?

As a young man, John Marshall was given a manservant slave named Robin by his father. Robin remained with Marshall until Marshall's death. A lifetime slave owner, Robin was the one slave offered emancipation by Marshall's Will, or technically a Codicil to the Will, which appears to be the reference you seek. The Codicil, quoted below, is a bit more nuanced than your recollection.

John Marshall Codicil of August 13, 1832 to his Will of April 9, 1832:

It is my wish to emancipate my faithful servant, Robin, and I direct his emancipation if he chuses [sic] to conform to the laws on that subject, requiring that he should leave the state or if permission can be obtained for his continuing, to reside in it. In the event of his going to Liberia I give him one hundred dollars, if he does not go thither I give him fifty dollars shuld it be found impracticable to liberate him consistently with law and his own inclination, I desire that he may choose his master among my sons, or if he prefer my daughter that he may be held in trust for her and her family as is the other property bequeathed in trust for her, and that he may be always treated as a faithful meritorious servant.

Ref: 35 J. Marshall L. Rev. 75 (2001); Frances Howell Rudko; Pause at the Rubicon, John Marshall and Emancipation: Reparations in the Early National Period?

[Kalamata]

>>DoodleDawg wrote: "That was in his last will and testament. The slave was Marshall's personal manservant and somewhat elderly at Marshall's death."
>>woodpusher wrote: "As a young man, John Marshall was given a manservant slave named Robin by his father. Robin remained with Marshall until Marshall's death. "

Thanks. I didn't recall those details. Using the keywords "will" and "robin", I located a reference in one of my books:

"Marshall's will is dated April 9, 1832, and has five codicils of subsequent dates attached. After certain donations to grandsons named John and Thomas, the estate, consisting chiefly of his portion of the Fairfax purchase, was to be divided equally among his five children. To the daughter and her descendants were also secured one hundred shares of stock which his wife had held in the Bank of the United States, but in 1835 these were probably of little value. His faithful body servant Robin was to be emancipated and, if he chose, sent to Liberia, in which event he should receive one hundred dollars. But if he preferred to remain in the Commonwealth, he should receive but fifty dollars; and if it turned out to "be impracticable to liberate him consistently with law and his own inclination," he was to select his master from among the children, "that he may always be treated as a faithful meritorious servant."

[Edward Samuel Corwin, "John Marshall and the Constitution." Yale University Press, 1920, pp.221-222]

Mr. Kalamata

[woodpusher]

Thanks. I didn't recall those details. Using the keywords "will" and "robin", I located a reference in one of my books:

I just noticed I left a quotation mark out of the link I gave the for Marshall Law Review article. Apologies for the broken link. Here should be a working link:

35 J. Marshall L. Rev. 75 (2001); Frances Howell Rudko; Pause at the Rubicon, John Marshall and Emancipation: Reparations in the Early National Period?

The entire will and all the codicils are at:
The Papers of John Marshall, Volume XII, Charles Hobson, editor, pp. 193-200.

[Kalamata]

>>woodpusher wrote: "I just noticed I left a quotation mark out of the link I gave the for Marshall Law Review article. Apologies for the broken link. Here should be a working link: 35 J. Marshall L. Rev. 75 (2001); Frances Howell Rudko; Pause at the Rubicon, John Marshall and Emancipation: Reparations in the Early National Period? The entire will and all the codicils are at: The Papers of John Marshall, Volume XII, Charles Hobson, editor, pp. 193-200."

Thanks. I noticed the paper mentioned Marshall had a "small holding of slaves":

"Records reveal that Marshall maintained a small holding of slaves throughout his life, that he received slaves as gifts and that he gave slaves to his sons. In 1783, as a wedding present, his father gave him one slave, named Robin Spurlock, who remained with him until Marshall died on July 6, 1835. At his death, Marshall did not free his slaves, but bequeathed them, all save one. Only his manservant Robin, could, by virtue of Marshall's will, choose freedom."

[Frances Howell Rudko, "Pause at the Rubicon, John Marshall and Emancipation: Reparations in the Early National Period." The John Marshall Law Review, Vol.35, Iss.1, Art.3; Fall, 2001, p.77]

A "small number" of slaves seems to be the consensus among Marshall scholars. However, this fellow claims that Marshall owned perhaps 150 slaves:

Ariel Sallows Lecture presented by Paul Finkelman

How did that escape attention for almost 2 centuries? Perhaps historians do not want to know the truth when it undermines the legacies of their heroes, and Marshall is most certainly a hero among big-government progressives.

Mr. Kalamata

[fieldmarshaldj]

Yes. And what is the end goal of these “arguments” ? The slaves were freed, Lincoln reunited the country. Should we go back and undo all that ? Do these guys have a clue as to what they’re arguing for and what it would’ve meant ?

[BroJoeK]

OIFVeteran to jeffersondem on Thos Jefferson: "Hell must have frozen over because I’m actually agreeing with you on this one.
The founding fathers didn’t create slavery, they found it here.
You can’t blame the founders for slavery."

Thomas Jefferson was a, ah, complicated figure, with enough contradictions to support different interpretations.
Enough, indeed, to suggest that our good FRiend jeffersondem may not himself know what his screen-name really implies.
For example, when we say, "I am a Jeffersonian (small-d) democrat," which Jefferson do we mean?

1. The Jefferson who wrote, "all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with..." and worked as President to expand voter rolls?

2. The Jefferson who opposed slavery in the Declaration, abolished slavery in the Northwest Territories and ended international importations of slaves?

3. The strict-constructionist leader of the anti-Federalists and anti-Administration factions who opposed by nullification not just the Alien and Sedition Acts, but also what were called "internal improvements" (roads, canals, bridges, etc.) under President Adams?

   

4. The President who supported internal improvements and arrested Aaron Burr for treason in plotting secession?
   The President who acknowledged the Louisiana Purchase was unconstitutional but did not submit a constitutional amendment for it, since the only opposition came from Northern Federalists?

5. The loose-constructionist President who was opposed by John Randolph's "Old Republicans" on Jefferson's support for internal improvements?

That last item makes my point most clearly: by 1808 Jefferson had become so much of a loose-construction, quasi-Federalist that within his own party, men like John Randolph formed their own more conservative faction which they called "Old Republicans" aka "Tertium Quids" -- the third element.

In short, just like Democrats today, Jefferson's public "strict constructionism" applied only to opposition Federalists, and was pretty much ignored once Jefferson's own party was in power.

Jefferson was a, ah, complicated figure.

[woodpusher]

A "small number" of slaves seems to be the consensus among Marshall scholars. However, this fellow claims that Marshall owned perhaps 150 slaves:

Ariel Sallows Lecture presented by Paul Finkelman

How did that escape attention for almost 2 centuries? Perhaps historians do not want to know the truth when it undermines the legacies of their heroes, and Marshall is most certainly a hero among big-government progressives.

I am familiar with Paul Finkelman from his book, Dred Scott v. Sandford, A Brief History with Documents, but I had not actually seen or heard him before. Interesting video. As Ransom Stoddard said in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valace, summoning the spirit of Horace Greeley, "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." Or, as attributed to Napolean, "What is history but a fable agreed upon." Civil War history may be the worst.

If anything, I believe the estimated slave count is a conservative figure as documentation is incomplete. It appears that the extent of Marshall's land holdings was vast. A provision in the will that caught my eye was:

I give to my son Jaquelin Ambler the land on which he now resides, called Prospect Hill, together with all my land lying west of the road between Prospect Hill and Hume, cast of the Rappahannock, south of Thumb Run and north of Bee Branch, also one thousand acres lying south of and adjoining the tract of Mr Ambler and west of the manor road, adjoining also the land of my Brother James.

And also, this thousand acres over yonder. There are three provisions where one thousand acres are bequeathed, but the great majority of the land grants are not stated in acres.

[jeffersondem]

“Jefferson was a, ah, complicated figure.”

It is one thing to refer to Jefferson as a complicated figure; quite another to compare the author of the Declaration of Independence to a communist pig as was done in a recent post. See below:

“Mr. Jefferson has more in common with these communist pigs in Charlottesville... “Some animals are more equal than others.””

Disgraceful statement. That I can tell you.

[fieldmarshaldj]

There you go again.

[HandyDandy]

”I didn’t realize you have been arguing that Lincoln “fought to free the slaves.” Is that your argument: Lincoln “fought to free the slaves?”

Do you bring a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to work, or do you take the bus?

[OIFVeteran]

I feel like I stepped into some bizarre universe. I absolutely agree with you on this one too.