Posted on 10/20/2019 5:39:23 AM PDT by FRinCanada2
The more appropriate question would be to EU members who need to vote whether they should “cash an unsigned check” knowing that it was written under duress. If the entity forcing the letter to be drafted —. IF all 322 members of the UK parliament signed the “check” would the EU be authorized to cash it since none of those 322 MP’s are ok the “account” ?
aha.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/3787589/posts?page=13#13
you only mentioned “illegitimate” in response #13, not “illegal.” In any case, I totally missed it (probably skimming way too fast in an attempt to keep up with all of the news and discussion).
labour appears to be using the term differently, which might then result in some confusion or at least draw attention to the need for some clarification of usage of the term. maybe.
This isn’t a bank case - the EU will simply say “You didn’t sign this, you can now talk to the people who put you in power, the British parliament and sort it out.”
Boris sent an official request as the Prime Minister of England and Wales.
If he then turns around and says “I sent it but I didn’t send it”, he further devalues the leadership of the UK.
The British parliament have, as per the Benn act, the authority to tell the PM to send a letter requesting an extension.
If he’s not going to be man enough and plays a schoolboy trick, then there are still 10 days for them to force him to sign a letter and send it.
Either way, that’s the UK’s problem.
The EU has until late evening 31 October to agree or disagree to a request for extension (and the UK has until 31 to ask for one). So the entire kabuki theatre is nothing more than a peevish schoolboy prank
Actually that wasn't the vote.
The vote count that forces the PM to send an extension letter is the Benn Act - i.e. the (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019, of 9th September 2019
The Benn Act was passed by 327 to 299 votes - i.e. 52% :) the same slim majority as in the advisory, non-binding referendum
Hardly a super majority that would be required to override a Presidential VETO under US law.
You DO realize this isn't the USA, right? And the UK isn't under US law
The UK has 3 separate legal systems: the English-Welsh legal system, the Scottish legal system and the Northern Irish legal system
A lot of the noise on FR is because folks don't seem to realize there is a difference between the political systems in Merry Ole England and in the USA
1. it’s not “EU members” - it’s the executive of the confederation namely the 27 elected heads of government of the 27 countries
2. they don’t “need to” do anything - there are 10 days. The letter will go back to the UK with “err.. you forgot to sign this old boy. Now go and discuss it with your sovereign parliament who said you had to send it.”
3. “Under duress” - he’s the PM for heaven’s sake, he can resign or refuse to send it (and presumably under the Benn act be arrested or whatever). instead he took the weasel’s option, but it’s not a way out
4. The ball is purely in the UK’s court - it’s PM has sent an official letter, yet sent a personal letter refuting it. So he’s saying “I implore you to help me fix the mess in my own country” - that’s pretty much abject surrender by boris instead of being a man. Shame.
In either case, Boris has played a Billy Bunter peevish trick to his local audience.
The letter was addressed to Tusk who would send it back with “you forgot to sign it.” and then Boris would be compelled under the Benn Act to sign it.
Boris may be delaying to get his deal signed by parliament.
Either way, the leaders who are from the countries who would be most harmed - Ireland and France are the ones who will push the move. Ireland has been setting EU policy on Brexit since 2017 - it’s key concern is the frictionless border. France wants the UK out. Merkel is slowly getting to Macron’s position, but still the EU position will be decided by Varadkar
Had to look this one up. Interesting. Perhaps a model for America’s own Cartman in South Park.
Some of the most exquisite literary creations date to the fag end of the Victorian era into the Edwardian and Georgian era
Billy Bunter
The William books — *priceless
Biggles series — *priceless
Wodehouse’s entire collection of 80 books - whether Mulliners’ Tales or Lord Dynamite or Blanding’s castle or jeeves and Wooster or the Drones or even better (my favourite), the early years - the cricket/school series (Mike, Mik & Psmith, the Prefect’s uncle etc.)
Also notable: the McAuslan and the Flashman series by George McDonald Fraser - not quite Georgian, but lovely enough.
Wodehouse Lived in Remsenburg about a half hour from my house. Never read his books. Dated a girl some time in the early 70s from west Hampton who knew him. Pointed out his house whenever we drove past it.
My wife likes the Wooster-Jeeves books and TV shows staring Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry. Though the only British humor I like is Python and Fawlty Towers maybe Blackadder.
Cheers
You’ve. never. read. Wodehouse?!
You are denying yourself a marvellous treat.
i strongly suggest picking up “The Code of the Woosters” or “Damsel in Distress” - or for more immersive reading “the Prefect’s Uncle”
It’s more Blackadder than Python or Fawlty Towers. The TV shows are good, but the books are infinitely better
As far as TV comedy is concerned, I really like Bournestown - if you can get past the broad Scottish accent, you’ll love it
maybe a signature would require a separate court decision or even another act of parliament, presuming tusk bothers to inquire at all... all in the timing...
Why don’t the 300 or so MP’s who are trying to FORCE the PM to sign a letter against his will send the EU the letter with THEIR signature on it?
Interesting analysis.
1 and 2: My point remains that a PM should not be FORCED to sign a letter against his will without a Super Majority vote of its Parliament. In my opinion of course it’s a personal opinion of principle not a technical legal one
3: If the other nations accept/approve a request that is knowingly signed under duress. Even if legally permissible would raise serious moral and ethical questions. Agree?
4: I believe the proverbial ball is in the court of each EU member who will knowingly vote to approve an unsigned or a signed under duress request of another member.
Had to look this one up. My knowledge of Irish government is limited. Explain why. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoiseach
Is the key vote?
It’s not the “key vote” in the sense of tiebreaker or decider etc.
The EU is a confederation of independent countries that pool together some things like trade policy (which gives small countries like Ireland, Estonia etc. a bigger voice and negotiating position in trade).
Now the key point of any confederation is how well it takes care of its smaller members.
the EU, outside of the UK, France, Germany and Italy is all small countries and they were watching Brexit very, very closely.
Brexit mostly affects Ireland - and Ireland would be hit by 1. trade problems no matter what kind of deal or no deal (20% of their business is with the UK, down from 70% 40 years ago, but still a lot
2. by food/electricity (the British minister threatened to cut off food supplies. But this is now solved by increased trade going from the european mainland to ireland directly and also electricity cables connecting Ireland to the EU-wide grid)
and
3. by violence IF a border came up.
Germany and France wanted a deal, the UK wanted a deal etc. - but the former could not throw Ireland under the bus.
The ONLY stickling point in the May deal was around the backstop, which was put up to solve the problem of “no border in Ireland”
So Ireland has been setting EU policy towards the Brexit deal. Think of it - otherwise, there is no issue for the UK
1 & 2 -> it was a cross-party law passed. That’s the system they have. Boris could have resigned or refused. Instead he played games
3. Then the other countries would be acknowledging that the British PM is no longer in charge and the UK does not have a functioning government
4. As I pointed out - the response is “You forgot to sign this”
Thank you for taking the time to explain that with sufficient detail that I and others with my limited knowledge of the
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoiseach
concern. That being said wouldn’t Ireland be a better position to negotiate directly with the UK on trade agreements without the need to filter that negotiation through the EU? What about getting the US involved in bilateral or trilateral talks between UK, Ireland and the USA? Would that not be a viable option or am I missing something else.
"While it is open to the European Council to accede to the request mandated by Parliament"
This is proof of his childish games. he's basically said "I was mandated to send this letter asking for an extension and you are free to agree to my request".
And then you need to look at the letter by Sir Tim Barrow
"Attached is a letter sent as required...
In terms of the next steps, Her Majesty's Government will introduce the necessary legislation next week in order to proceed with ratification of the Withdrawal agreement"
And the letter says "We, the British government are officially sending you an official letter. We're going to agree to the Withdrawal agreement (the Boris deal) next week, don't worry"
A lot of theatre to play to the home audience "oh I did but didn't send the extension request"
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