Skip to comments.Red Flag Laws Spur Debate Over Due Process
Posted on 09/05/2019 6:34:43 PM PDT by familyop
In the year since Florida enacted its red flag law, Kendra Parris has defended nearly 20 clients against risk protection orders that could remove their firearms.
The Orlando-based lawyer has long represented people who might be subject to the states involuntary mental health treatment provision. But when this new law, meant to protect against people who might be a harm to themselves or others, passed in the aftermath of the February 2018 Parkland mass shooting, she saw yet another opportunity for the state to potentially deprive certain people of their civil liberties.
Its almost like a shiny new toy for law enforcement, Parris said, filing them left and right.
Since the laws adoption, Florida courts have approved around 2,500 risk protection orders, according to an August count by NPR.
Since Parkland, at least six states and the District of Columbia have passed red flag laws, which allow law enforcement agencies that have gotten a court order to remove guns from people considered a harm to themselves or others. In the wake of high-profile shootings this summer in Ohio and Texas, including one that killed eight people in Midland-Odessa this past weekend, more state lawmakers are considering such laws, as are some members of Congress.
Many law enforcement officials firmly believe the laws save lives, and lawmakers say they can craft legislation that wont infringe on civil liberties.
But for two decades, since the first such law was enacted in Connecticut, civil and gun rights advocates have protested that the seizures violate the U.S. Constitutions due process guarantee meaning residents have a right to fully argue their case in court.
Rather than find clear and convincing evidence, [courts are] basically saying, Better safe than sorry, Parris said.
Most red flag laws are vague on what constitutes a significant danger, which gives courts broad discretion to seize firearms, Parris said. And in some states, respondents are not guaranteed representation in court, since these are civil and not criminal matters.
Many defense lawyers say respondents fare much better with legal representation. Of Parris seven cases that have gone to a hearing, she has won five which she said is a vastly higher success record than when someone represents themselves.
Due Process Concerns
Seventeen states and D.C. have laws on the books that allow law enforcement or family members to petition courts to remove weapons from people who may be dangerous and prevent them from buying other weapons for up to a year. In many of these states, bipartisan groups of lawmakers led the drive to pass the legislation.
States define red flags differently, but they largely follow the same process for taking away somebodys guns.
If someone is showing signs of erratic behavior or expressed some intent to hurt themselves or others, they might be subject to an extreme risk protection order. In most states with red flag laws, family or community members can petition a court for those orders. But in Florida, Rhode Island and Vermont, law enforcement officials are the only ones who can petition to remove firearms.
If there is an immediate risk of harm, a court can issue a temporary ex parte order to seize guns from people for up to 14 days in most states. Other states range from two days to 45 days. At those hearings, a judge can issue the order by listening to evidence from the petitioner.
In many cases, the subject of a petition cant present a defense until the final hearing. But thats where the process gets legally dubious to some critics.
Dave Kopel, research director at the Independence Institute, a Denver-based libertarian think tank, said states have taken the same approach President Donald Trump spoke in favor of in March 2018: Take the guns first, go through due process second.
When it comes to seizing guns through a temporary order, the standards that a judge uses should be high, Kopel said. Vermont, he believes, has a fair system, which requires specific facts that show an imminent and extreme risk.
The situation becomes even more precarious when loved ones can petition for the removal of firearms, he said. Spurned former partners or family members seeking revenge might weaponize this tool, he said. Because of that, he argues, there should be a penalty for maliciously false accusations, which several states have adopted.
But New York state Sen. Brian Kavanagh, a Democrat and the author of the states red flag law that went into effect last month, said family members and former partners are most likely to have evidence and an urgent need for safety. The Empire State even added school officials to the long list of potential petitioners.
The New York law requires enough due process, he said, including an appeals process, a prompt evidentiary hearing and a burden on the petitioner to meet a certain standard of evidence.
We think weve gotten the balance right, Kavanagh said. This is the government depriving people of their property. When you do that, you have to be careful. And we think we have.
In some states, lawmakers modified legislation to address due process concerns before the final votes.
In Rhode Island, the American Civil Liberties Union originally came out against the states 2018 measure until the legislature tightened the standard for granting a petition, created penalties for providing false evidence of a threat, allowed only law enforcement to file petitions, required specific evidence and granted the right to legal counsel in hearings.
After these changes, the group shifted its stance to neutral on the bill, dropping its main objections, said Rhode Island ACLU Executive Director Steven Brown.
We believe its very important that basic due process standards are considered when drafting measures like this, he said. It can have serious impacts on innocent individuals.
Still, some gun rights activists reject the laws flat out. Mark Pennak, president of Maryland Shall Issue, a gun rights group that has opposed many of the recent gun control measures adopted in the state, including a ban on bump stocks and the red flag law, said hes concerned about future abuses, including officers taking away guns just to be sure.
My concerns have gotten worse, Pennak said. People are being legally traumatized.
No Perfect Law Red flag laws have emerged as one of the most common responses to mass shootings across the country in recent years.
At least five more states, including deeply red Kentucky, have bipartisan bills under consideration. Polls show that Americans widely support the policy even by as much as 77%, according to an August poll by American Public Media Research Lab.
While its difficult to know how many shootings might have been prevented through these court orders, news reports from around the nation show that courts and local law enforcement agencies have been able to use the laws thousands of times. Law enforcement officials have been clear: Many think these laws are saving lives.
For decades, Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri and other Florida law enforcement officials would encounter people whose behavior didnt rise to the level of a crime but who showed signs that they might be a threat.
There was nothing in state law, he said in an interview, that would have allowed law enforcement to remove guns or ammunition from a potentially dangerous home, until March 2018 when Florida enacted its red flag law.
Now we can do something in those situations, he said. Between March 2018 and March 2019, courts granted 233 risk protection orders in Pinellas County, according to state data. In that period, courts denied only one.
Gualtieri rejects some of the criticism over due process. The standard for removing weapons is high, he said, and requires clear and convincing evidence. His department has a five-person team dedicated solely to risk protection orders.
And when courts issue temporary orders, its only for a brief period, he said, and builds on existing laws on civil domestic violence restraining and protection orders.
There is no perfect law, Gualtieri said. It doesnt exist. But we are much better to make sure that the guns are not in the wrong hands. Theres nothing worse than a horrific situation that could well have been avoided.
Red flag laws continue to enjoy nationwide momentum.
After three mass shootings last month in Dayton, Ohio, in El Paso and Midland-Odessa, Texas left at least 39 people dead, state and national leaders are once again hearing a chorus for action to prevent future gun violence.
U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican, announced his intention last month to introduce bipartisan legislation with Democratic U.S. Sen. Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut. It would set up a grant program to assist states in adopting red flag laws.
Local law enforcement agencies could use those funds to hire and consult mental health professionals before issuing extreme risk protection orders.
But Graham, the chairman of the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, made sure to mention that new legislation would require robust due process and judicial review.
Red flag laws have survived two major legal challenges. In one case, the Connecticut Appellate Court found in 2016 that the states red flag law does not implicate the second amendment, as it does not restrict the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of their homes.
Since the Second Amendment was the focus in both cases, said Kopel of the Independence Institute, there is still room to address due process.
In Florida, attorney Kendra Parris has a case in the state district court of appeals, where she is defending a 16-year-old boy with autism who threatened to shoot his classmates after becoming agitated in class when a peer kept bumping into his desk.
School authorities notified local law enforcement, who later secured a temporary ex parte risk protection order.
In the process, Parris is arguing, the boys constitutional rights were violated. Parris is citing the laws vague language, due process gaps and separation of powers issues: Local enforcement both conducted the investigation and decided whether the case should go to a hearing.
She thinks her case, which goes to oral arguments in October, might eventually make its way up to the Florida Supreme Court.
You are in far more danger from you own government than you are from armed crazies.
Governments murdered 262,000,000 of their own citizens in the 20th century alone.
Armed crazies aren’t even a pimple compared to that.
If we are going to have red-flag laws, the first people to be red-flagged should be all government officials and employees and their bodyguards.
If we can save just one life it will be worth it.
If "basic due process standards are considered" there can never be any such thing as a "red flag" law.
The entire concept is to create a 100% bypass of due process.
This needs to absolutely be put out of business.
Yep and 10K worth of legal bills later
Keep in mind, since the gorilla has a reasonable chance of getting shot if he tries to beat the soon to-be-ex-wife and her daughters to a bloody pulp, and he is a gorilla, it's what they do, and she is a mother grizzly and protecting her cubs is what she does.
Besides there are damned few liberal judges who won't think that a gun in a house where children live is anything but prima facia evidence of Red Flag danger.
How about lets just return to punishing the guilty instead of everyone else.
take away guns and they will make bombs, take away bombs and they will use fire, take away fire and they will use motor vehicles, or rocks or knives or hammers etc etc etc
“This needs to absolutely be put out of business.”
[Quick, easy interface to contact your legislators here.]
[[This needs to absolutely be put out of business.]]
Sanctuary cities and states with anything goes for illegal aliens while US citizens have their due process rights violated.
Debate?! What is there to debate? There is absolutely no due process with red flag laws.
while they talk about ‘due process’.. many Americans including some good honest citizens (and good “just following orders” police officers) will be hurt or shot dead if the political hacks try to impose such patently illegal and dangerous “laws” or confiscations on American citizens
just pointing out the obvious, alas the commie political hacks probably won’t quit, tho
they don’t give a damn about American citizens or police, they only care about their own power and profits
Red flag laws and socialist libtards and cucks that want them, prove we need the 2nd Amendment now more than ever.
The real question is when does the illusion of safety trump constitutional and God given natural rights?
Red flag laws won’t make anyone safer but it might make them less safe when people start getting very angry about losing their rights.
What idiot alive believes firearms are the only way to hurt mass numbers of people? Have they never heard of fire, gasoline, bombs, poison or other biological agents, just to name a few?
Open carry does bother some people. Now, why is important?
IF someone in CVS sees a person carrying and let's say the person carrying had a bad day and aren't very polite.
What's to prevent someone within the store, say an employee, to call the police, or obtain the person's name and report it as a potential "red flag".
Next thing you know police are at the gun owner's home with a warrant to confiscate the gun(s) until such time as a court can determine IF they are truly a "red flag".
In San Fran they voted to call the NRA a terrorist organization.
Change one or two members on the Supreme Court, lose the White House and/or Senate and you will see other groups labeled as such.
Free Republic and all who've created accounts here could be on a red flag list.
It could all change overnight.
That's why it is important to show up at the ballot box next November.
“...Free Republic and all who’ve created accounts here could be on a red flag list.
It could all change overnight.
That’s why it is important to show up at the ballot box next November.....”
Very well said and all very true. We ALL need to get to the ballot box next November and vote! Most folks don’t realize it, but we’re in the midst of an outright communist overthrow of our nation via of the political process (they could never succeed in any other way). POTUS has ripped the mask of em and guess what? What’s underneath is vile, ugly, evil....and dangerous. They’re NOT your traditional democrats. They’re outright hard-core communists hell-bent on the destruction of our nation as we now know it. They need to be defeated and defeated soundly.
So what is needed is to find out the names of every body guard for every Hollywood star and every politician and call them in with the Red Flag law.
You dont say, shiney new toy for law enforcement... and they say cops would never abuse them...
Red Flag laws are the reason we need the 2nd Amendment.
Wow. America is made up of 77% of idiots, democrats and Elmer Fudd morons stabbing you in the back to communists.
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