Kalamata post #455:
"When you show me the word "supernatural" in the scripture, I will repeat the uses of the word "natural" in the scripture and the works of the Early Church Fathers, that you have thus far ignored." The Biblical terms are "miracles" (37 times), "wonders" (111 times) and "signs" (135 times).
These are specifically intended as God's supernatural works to show His people His power and authority over mere nature.
The Bible and early Church Fathers are totally clear in distinguishing between mere natural processes and God's supernatural miracles, wonders and signs.
Kalamata: "Which parts, Joey?"
All, without exception.
Kalamata: "You left out the words, "after man evolved from a "self-replicating" molecule, via an ape" which you added to the scripture to make it fit the doctrine of your evolutionism religion.
God frowns on man-made additions to his Word, Joey:"
As usual with Kalamata, that's just more pure nonsense because science neither adds to nor subtracts from Biblical text.
Kalamata: "I don't see how any good can come from teaching our children anything that is contrary to the Word of God, such as man evolving from an ape.
I am reasonably certain you have heard this before: A frog turning into a prince is called a fairy tale.
A frog turning into a prince over millions of years is called science.
But it is still a fairy tale, no matter what you call it."
I don't see how any good can come from lying to children about either the Bible or science.
No frog ever turned into a prince scientifically.
Kalamata: "That is horrendously deceitful, Joey!
A LIE by omission!
You left out the most important part of your statement: the part where you claim the existence of "pre-humans" who became human! "
Now, now, calm down baby Danny boy, I know the truth can be hard for you, but it's time to put on your big-boy pants and get ready for reality.
The Bible tells us that God began with dirt and science thinks that's about right.
The Bible tells us that when God finished creating physical man He "breathed the breath of life" into Adam and Adam became a "living soul".
Of course natural science knows nothing about "living souls", but even the most jaded atheist understands there's a qualitative difference between human consciousness and that of other species.
Kalamata: "Now, Joey, please show us where in the Bible we can find pre-humans turning into humans, or admit you added your own words to the scripture."
Now, now baby boy, it's time for you to grow up and stop lying.
I neither added to nor subtracted one word from scripture, simply pointed out that it does not necessarily disagree with natural-science.
Kalamata: "How so, Joey?
Are you denying God created man uniquely in his own image, and the image of his previously created angels?
Or, are you in the cover-up mode?"
No, baby boy, I'm simply saying that's a straw man argument.
Look it up.
Kalamata: "Did I say Jesus lied to Matthew, Joey; or is that more misdirection?"
referring to Matthew 17:20 "Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” "
Your claim, Danny boy, was:
"You haven't seen anyone move any mountains lately, have you?" Well... yes, actually I could cite any number of mountains moved by faith, notably among them when Pope Saint John Paul II teamed up with President Reagan and Britain's Margaret Thatcher to help bring down the old Soviet Empire.
I'd say that puts the lie to your apparent claim that Jesus was being less than truthful in Matthew 17:20.
Kalamata: "Again, you haven't seen anyone move any mountains lately, have you?
All it takes is faith as a grain of mustard seed?
The disciples and a few early Christians received supernatural powers; but none afterward, that I am aware of."
So let us take just a moment to notice the stunning situation: here I am, your humble servant, BroJoeK, defending both the ideas of natural-science and miracles from God, while our Denier-boy Danny Kalamata denies both!
Astonishing!
And again let's notice that in the New Testament Jesus performed miracles on His own, while of His disciples it's said that God performed miracles through them.
Finally, we should remember that from earliest times through today the Catholic Church kept records of God's miracles and used them in discerning sainthood among its faithful.
Kalamata: "I have 26 Bible translations, Joey, and none mention the part about molecules-to-ape-to-man.
Bible Gateway lists even more translations, again without the molecules-to-man part:
You must have added those words to the scripture, Joey."
Rubbish, I've added nothing to scripture, merely noticed that natural-science does not necessarily contradict it. ![]()
>>Kalamata post #455: "When you show me the word "supernatural" in the scripture, I will repeat the uses of the word "natural" in the scripture and the works of the Early Church Fathers, that you have thus far ignored."
>>Joey said: "The Biblical terms are "miracles" (37 times), "wonders" (111 times) and "signs" (135 times). These are specifically intended as God's supernatural works to show His people His power and authority over mere nature. The Bible and early Church Fathers are totally clear in distinguishing between mere natural processes and God's supernatural miracles, wonders and signs."
None of that contradicts Jesus being a natural man while on earth:
- "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem," -- Mat 2:1 KJV
- "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham." -- Heb 2:16 KJV
- "And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him." -- John 1:32 KJV
- "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." -- Heb 2:17-18 KJV
- "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." -- John 19:30 KJV
It certainly appears that Jesus was a natural man until after his crucifixion, Joey.
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>>Kalamata: "Which parts, Joey?"
>>Joey said: "All, without exception.
Joey left out all of the context, leaving us with mindless gibberish. I had asked Joey this question in #455:
"You do not believe there is science in the Bible, and you mock the historical record, so which parts 'demonstrate God's supernatural majesty & power'?"
Joey's response:
"You'll find it all beginning with Genesis 1:1 and ending with Revelation 22:21."
Joey doesn't believe there is science in the Bible, nor does he believe it is historically accurate; but yet he believes all of the Bible "demonstrates God's supernatural majesty & power?" That is sophistry.
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>>Kalamata: "You left out the words, "after man evolved from a "self-replicating" molecule, via an ape" which you added to the scripture to make it fit the doctrine of your evolutionism religion. God frowns on man-made additions to his Word, Joey:"
>>Joey said: "As usual with Kalamata, that's just more pure nonsense because science neither adds to nor subtracts from Biblical text."
More sophistry. Every evolutionist believes their version of science contradicts God's word.
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>>Kalamata: "I don't see how any good can come from teaching our children anything that is contrary to the Word of God, such as man evolving from an ape. I am reasonably certain you have heard this before: >>Kalamata: "A frog turning into a prince is called a fairy tale. A frog turning into a prince over millions of years is called science. But it is still a fairy tale, no matter what you call it."
>>Joey said: "I don't see how any good can come from lying to children about either the Bible or science. No frog ever turned into a prince scientifically."
Then why do evolutionists teach it to our children?
"Our tendency to develop hiccups is another influence of our past. There are two issues to think about. The first is what causes the spasm of nerves that initiates the hiccup. The second is what controls that distinctive hic, the abrupt inhalation-glottis closure. The nerve spasm is a product of our fish history, while the hic is an outcome of the history we share with animals such as tadpoles… It turns out that the pattern generator responsible for hiccups is virtually identical to one in amphibians. And not in just any amphibians—in tadpoles, which use both lungs and gills to breathe. Tadpoles use this pattern generator when they breathe with gills… The parallels between our hiccups and gill breathing in tad poles are so extensive that many have proposed that the two phenomena are one and the same." [Neil Shubin, "Your Inner Fish." Pantheon Books, 2008, Chap.11, p.190, 192]
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>>Kalamata: "That is horrendously deceitful, Joey! A LIE by omission! You left out the most important part of your statement: the part where you claim the existence of "pre-humans" who became human! "
>>Joey said: "Now, now, calm down baby Danny boy, I know the truth can be hard for you, but it's time to put on your big-boy pants and get ready for reality."
Is Joey being patronizing, or santimonious?
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>>Joey said: "The Bible tells us that God began with dirt and science thinks that's about right."
Science doesn't tell us anything, Joey. We must rely on man's interpretation of observable data, and trust him not to let his imagination run wild, like Charlie Darwin did.
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>>Joey said: "The Bible tells us that when God finished creating physical man He "breathed the breath of life" into Adam and Adam became a "living soul". Of course natural science knows nothing about "living souls", but even the most jaded atheist understands there's a qualitative difference between human consciousness and that of other species."
More sophistry. This is the Genesis narrative:
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed." -- Gen 2:7-8 KJV
So, God made man, then God planted a garden to place man in. I wonder how long man had to wait until God finished the garden?
Jesus said man was created at the beginning of creation, not 12 or 14 billion years later:
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." -- Mar 10:6 KJV
The New Testament authors spoke of Noah as a historical figure:
"Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." -- Luk 3:36-38 KJV
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." -- Heb 11:7 KJV
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." -- 1Pet 3:18-20 KJV
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" -- 2Pet 2:4-5 KJV
Jesus also spoke of Noah and the flood as part of history:
"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." -- Luk 17:26-30 KJV
Heresy includes the denial of the words of Christ:
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." -- 2Pet 2:1 KJV
That is not a good idea, since the words of Christ will judge us:
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." -- John 12:48 KJV
So, you really have three choices: you can believe Christ; you can believe evolutionists (who have a long, treacherous history of fraud and deception;) or you can reject both. I choose Christ.
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>>Kalamata: "Now, Joey, please show us where in the Bible we can find pre-humans turning into humans, or admit you added your own words to the scripture."
>>Joey said: "Now, now baby boy, it's time for you to grow up and stop lying."
Is Joey being patronizing, or santimonious?
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>>Joey said: "I neither added to nor subtracted one word from scripture, simply pointed out that it does not necessarily disagree with natural-science."
Science agrees with the Bible. Pseudoscience, such as evolutionism, contradicts the scripture.
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>>Kalamata: "How so, Joey? Are you denying God created man uniquely in his own image, and the image of his previously created angels? Or, are you in the cover-up mode?"
>>Joey said: "No, baby boy, I'm simply saying that's a straw man argument.Look it up."
Joey is in the cover-up mode.
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>>Kalamata: "Did I say Jesus lied to Matthew, Joey; or is that more misdirection?"
>>Kalamata referring to Matthew 17:20 "Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” "
>>Joey said: "Your claim, Danny boy, was: "You haven't seen anyone move any mountains lately, have you?"
That was a question, Joey, not a claim.
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>>Joey said: "Well... yes, actually I could cite any number of mountains moved by faith, notably among them when Pope Saint John Paul II teamed up with President Reagan and Britain's Margaret Thatcher to help bring down the old Soviet Empire. I'd say that puts the lie to your apparent claim that Jesus was being less than truthful in Matthew 17:20."
You are either lying by claiming my question was a "claim," or you don't understand what you read. You also didn't address this point by Christ:
"Nothing will be impossible for you."
Yet, you seem to believe it is impossible for plants, animals and man to have been instantly created by God, as the scripture implies, in spite of the fact that there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.
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>>Kalamata: "Again, you haven't seen anyone move any mountains lately, have you? All it takes is faith as a grain of mustard seed? The disciples and a few early Christians received supernatural powers; but none afterward, that I am aware of."
>>Joey said: "So let us take just a moment to notice the stunning situation: here I am, your humble servant, BroJoeK, defending both the ideas of natural-science and miracles from God, while our Denier-boy Danny Kalamata denies both! Astonishing!
You failed again to address my point, Joey. But I have to admit, that is slick rhetoric. Your rhetoric is right up there with the deceitful rhetoric of the partners in crime, Charlie Darwin and Charlie Lyell!
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>>Joey said: "And again let's notice that in the New Testament Jesus performed miracles on His own, while of His disciples it's said that God performed miracles through them."
You are ignorant of the scriptures, Joey. Jesus could do nothing on his own during his earthly ministry:
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel." -- John 5:19-20 KJV
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>>Joey said: "Finally, we should remember that from earliest times through today the Catholic Church kept records of God's miracles and used them in discerning sainthood among its faithful."
I guess it depends on how you define a miracle. I define it as speaking in foreign languages you have never learned, raising the dead, healing the sick without the benefit of medicine, moving mountains, etc..
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>>Kalamata: "I have 26 Bible translations, Joey, and none mention the part about molecules-to-ape-to-man. Bible Gateway lists even more translations, again without the molecules-to-man part: You must have added those words to the scripture, Joey."
>>Joey said: "Rubbish, I've added nothing to scripture, merely noticed that natural-science does not necessarily contradict it."
Show us the verse that states man evolved from a bacteria.
Mr. Kalamata