Kalamata:
"Benedict Arnold was a war hero, Joey." Sure, until he wasn't -- wanted to replace George Washington, flipped sides when disappointed.
Thomas Paine supported the American Revolution with words and money, afterwards joined the French Revolution and was jailed there by Robespierre's Jacobins.
Paine eventually became deeply unpopular in the United States for his attacks on Christianity.
Kalamata: "It was most foolish of Paine to attack the faith that had sustained the colonists since they first arrived in America."
Even though jailed by Robespierre's Jacobins, Paine was more at home in the French Revolution -- which not only overthrew the King, but also guillotined French aristocracy and Catholic Church officials.
It was not the first, or last, time the wealth of an established religion was stolen to finance a revolution intended to destroy it.
Kalamata: "My point was, the revolution by scientists who were also Christians began in the Renaissance and continued until the rhetoric of Darwin and Lyell corrupted everything.
In general, the change was from “let’s try to prove this theory wrong,” to “let’s try to prove Darwin and Lyell right.”
That is not science."
Your version here is also fantasy, not true history.
In fact, as I pointed out in post #449, over the past 150+ years huge volumes of new data and ideas were added to Darwin's basic evolution ideas.
None "falsified" basic evolution but all improved our understandings to some degree.
That's how science is supposed to work.
Kalamata: "No, Joey, I am at odds with your understanding of the Founding Fathers and science, and those like you."
My understandings are based on historical facts, yours on self-serving fantasies & distortions.
For just one example: our Founders nearly all believed in the importance of religiously based morality, believed no republic could survive long without it, however, in 1794 future president, then Ambassador James Monroe, also reached out to get anti-religious Thomas Paine released from French Revolution prison.
Monroe eventually soured on Paine and they split, but President Jefferson invited Paine back to the US in 1802
Point is, at least some of our Founders were able to tolerate Paine, despite his, ah, eccentric opinions.
Today Paine is honored for, among others: his support of the American Revolution, his early opposition to slavery, his "Rights of Man" ideas which we take more or less for granted.
Paine's "Age of Reason" presents traditional deistic ideas and opposed corrupt established religions, people we today might call the "theological swamp".
Kalamata: "And get your facts straight about Galileo.
The scientific orthodoxy of today is no different than the scientific orthodoxy of Galileo’s day.
Both have recruited the power of government to suppress opposing views.
I believe science can stand on it own without suppression.
You obviously do not."
Well... first of all, by your own admission, Intelligent Design is supernatural, not natural-science.
Second, Danny boy, I've now instructed you several times on the truth about Galileo, but you continue to lie & deny, deny & lie, without end.
So, one more time: even in Galileo's time, it was no crime to be stupid.
But it was a serious crime to commit heresy and that is what Galileo was punished for.
In my post #452 above I quoted five Biblical verses Galileo's ideas contradicted.
In posts #350 & #482 among others I quoted from the Church Inquisition which convicted Galileo while also opposing Copernicus and Kepler.
Kalamata: "You always have to get your little dig in, Joey."
Not a "dig", Danny boy, since I have huge respect for freemasons and a son-in-law is one, as were several Founding Fathers -- i.e., Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Lafayette, Marshall, Burr & Monroe along with European Enlightenment leaders like Locke, Voltaire, Hayden & Mozart.
Freemasons were not historically anti-Christian though sometimes persecuted by established government churches.
Kalamata: "It was not as if there was a light switch to turn it off, Joey.
The dangers to society that come from abandoing traditional Christian faith in favor of “reason” still linger.
For example, Social Darwinism was very much a product of the Enlightenment.
In fact, Charlie’s grandfather, Erasmus, a major held some of the same anti-biblical views that Charlie later adopted."
First, sure, I "get" that you wish to blame "Enlightenment" for every bad thing, Danny baby boy.
The very word "enlightenment" sends you into paroxysms of incoherence -- smoke from your ears, froth from your mouth, "enlightenment" be d*mned to, ah, heck, right?
But as Americans, as political "children" of our Founding Fathers, we are committed to their Enlightenment ideas and history.
We are not necessarily committed to what came after in other historical ages -- Age of Revolution, Romantic Age, Victorian Age, etc., certainly not to atheistic Marxist totalitarianism.
But our Founders represent pinnacles of Enlightenment Era political & philosophical achievement and as such deserve our respect and honor.
Our Founders held a "decent respect" for the opinions of mankind and for what they called "natural philosophy", our term "natural science" = natural explanations for natural processes, only.
Kalamata on "separation of church & state": "Some of the most extreme are your buds, the evolutionists."
Maybe, but natural science assumptions are intended to be a methodology only, not philosophical or ontological commitments.
Religious opinions of individual scientists vary as much as those of any other citizens.
Regardless, I have no problem with, ahem, methodologically separating science from theology in mandatory public school science classes.
I also have no problem with teaching & practicing traditional religion in voluntary classes.
Kalamata: "No, Joey, Galileo was fodder for the scientific establishment of his day, as are the scientists of our day who refuse to bow to the establishment and kiss the ring of Darwin."
Oh, Danny baby boy, you just got to stop lying about this.
Stupidity was never a crime, but heresy was in Galileo's time as in many other times.
And heresy against the Bible is what you, Danny boy, are here fighting against, under the banner of "Intelligent Design". ![]()
>>Kalamata: "Benedict Arnold was a war hero, Joey."
>>Joey: "Sure, until he wasn't -- wanted to replace George Washington, flipped sides when disappointed."
No, he was a war hero, who later did foolish, traitorous things.
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>>Joey: "Thomas Paine supported the American Revolution with words and money, afterwards joined the French Revolution and was jailed there by Robespierre's Jacobins. Paine eventually became deeply unpopular in the United States for his attacks on Christianity."
That was a pretty dumb thing to do in a Christian nation. I assume his arrogance took control of his senses.
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>>Kalamata: "It was most foolish of Paine to attack the faith that had sustained the colonists since they first arrived in America."
>>Joey: "Even though jailed by Robespierre's Jacobins, Paine was more at home in the French Revolution -- which not only overthrew the King, but also guillotined French aristocracy and Catholic Church officials. It was not the first, or last, time the wealth of an established religion was stolen to finance a revolution intended to destroy it.
They were a charming bunch.
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>>Kalamata: "My point was, the revolution by scientists who were also Christians began in the Renaissance and continued until the rhetoric of Darwin and Lyell corrupted everything. In general, the change was from “let’s try to prove this theory wrong,” to “let’s try to prove Darwin and Lyell right.” That is not science."
>>Joey: "Your version here is also fantasy, not true history."
No, my version is exactly the way things are, and have been since Charlie's rhetoric exploded onto the scene. Evolutionary scientists are more concerned about proving Charlie right, than they are about science. The word science, to them, is just a cover for their thirst for power. Real science, like Behe's expose' on devolution, gets mocked, ridiculed, and suppressed, if it questions the orthodoxy of Pope Charlie Darwin.
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>>Joey: "In fact, as I pointed out in post #449, over the past 150+ years huge volumes of new data and ideas were added to Darwin's basic evolution ideas."
For what purpose? For the advancement of science? Baloney. For the perpetuation of atheistic control over science? Exactly.
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>>Joey: "None "falsified" basic evolution but all improved our understandings to some degree. That's how science is supposed to work."
Evolutionism cannot be falsified because it is not science, but is rather a perpetual reinvention and cover-up of a false doctrine. Science can be used to invent things -- to make life better for the people. Evolutionism cannot. Rather it has the opposite effect. It has become a powerful political doctrine, like Islam, but it is not science, nor will it ever be.
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>>Kalamata: "No, Joey, I am at odds with your understanding of the Founding Fathers and science, and those like you."
>>Joey: "My understandings are based on historical facts, yours on self-serving fantasies & distortions. For just one example: our Founders nearly all believed in the importance of religiously based morality, believed no republic could survive long without it, however, in 1794 future president, then Ambassador James Monroe, also reached out to get anti-religious Thomas Paine released from French Revolution prison. Monroe eventually soured on Paine and they split, but President Jefferson invited Paine back to the US in 1802 Point is, at least some of our Founders were able to tolerate Paine, despite his, ah, eccentric opinions."
I am trying to find a link between your statement and mine, but without success.
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>>Joey: "Today Paine is honored for, among others: his support of the American Revolution, his early opposition to slavery, his "Rights of Man" ideas which we take more or less for granted. Paine's "Age of Reason" presents traditional deistic ideas and opposed corrupt established religions, people we today might call the "theological swamp"."
Atheists love Paine; and there was no established religion of the United States until evolutionism was usurped into power.
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>>Kalamata: "And get your facts straight about Galileo. The scientific orthodoxy of today is no different than the scientific orthodoxy of Galileo’s day. Both have recruited the power of government to suppress opposing views. I believe science can stand on it own without suppression. You obviously do not."
>>Joey: "Well... first of all, by your own admission, Intelligent Design is supernatural, not natural-science."
Science is science, Joey. It is you and your atheist buds who are determined to keep it confined inside a box of your own "intelligent design," and not allow contradictory research to be freely discussed. That makes you an apologist for the suppressors of science, Joey.
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>>Joey: "Second, Danny boy, I've now instructed you several times on the truth about Galileo, but you continue to lie & deny, deny & lie, without end. So, one more time: even in Galileo's time, it was no crime to be stupid. But it was a serious crime to commit heresy and that is what Galileo was punished for."
Did you learn how to be a patronizing jerk, Joey, or were you born that way?
Galileo's "crime" was opposing the scientific establishment of those days, period.
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>>Joey: "In my post #452 above I quoted five Biblical verses Galileo's ideas contradicted. In posts #350 & #482 among others I quoted from the Church Inquisition which convicted Galileo while also opposing Copernicus and Kepler."
They were trumped up charges. Galileo's only "heresy" was denying the doctrine of the pagan Aristotle.
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>>Kalamata: "You always have to get your little dig in, Joey."
>>Joey: "Not a "dig", Danny boy, since I have huge respect for freemasons and a son-in-law is one, as were several Founding Fathers -- i.e., Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Lafayette, Marshall, Burr & Monroe along with European Enlightenment leaders like Locke, Voltaire, Hayden & Mozart. Freemasons were not historically anti-Christian though sometimes persecuted by established government churches."
I don't recall ever using the word "freemason" in a debate? Why bring it up, except perhaps to cast a shadow on the Founding Fathers. Your anti-Christian bias is always visible, Joey, no matter how well you try to hide it.
BTW, my paternal grandfather was a mason.
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>>Kalamata: "It was not as if there was a light switch to turn it off, Joey. The dangers to society that come from abandoning traditional Christian faith in favor of “reason” still linger. For example, Social Darwinism was very much a product of the Enlightenment. In fact, Charlie’s grandfather, Erasmus, a major [figure in the enlightenment,] held some of the same anti-biblical views that Charlie later adopted."
You left out a key clause in my statement, Joey: the one in the square brackets.
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>>Little Joey said: "First, sure, I "get" that you wish to blame "Enlightenment" for every bad thing, Danny baby boy. The very word "enlightenment" sends you into paroxysms of incoherence -- smoke from your ears, froth from your mouth, "enlightenment" be d*mned to, ah, heck, right?"
Are you hitting the sauce, Joey? I reject the anti-Christian, anti-God doctrine of the "enlightenment," which is more appropriately called, the "darkening."
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>>Little Joey said: "But as Americans, as political "children" of our Founding Fathers, we are committed to their Enlightenment ideas and history."
Except for a few under-miners, like Hamilton and Paine, the founders were committed to a Christian society and a Christian education. That can be appropriately called, the Enlightenment; but not the other.
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>>Little Joey said: "We are not necessarily committed to what came after in other historical ages -- Age of Revolution, Romantic Age, Victorian Age, etc., certainly not to atheistic Marxist totalitarianism. But our Founders represent pinnacles of Enlightenment Era political & philosophical achievement and as such deserve our respect and honor."
We dishonor them by trashing the moral, Christian society and republic they established; and nothing has caused more destruction the republic they established than evolutionism. Nothing else comes close.
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>>Little Joey said: "Our Founders held a "decent respect" for the opinions of mankind and for what they called "natural philosophy", our term "natural science" = natural explanations for natural processes, only."
That is pure sophistry.
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>>Kalamata on "separation of church & state": "Some of the most extreme are your buds, the evolutionists."
>>Little Joey said: "Maybe, but natural science assumptions are intended to be a methodology only, not philosophical or ontological commitments."
Tell that to your buds who use the perceived moral authority of their office or position to trash Christianity, God, and the Word of God. That has been going on since I was in high school, if not before. This is from a 1962 Biology text book:
"Opponents of the evolutionary doctrine, none of whom is a trained biologist, have in common one viewpoint which is not consistent with the discoveries of biology. (It is in fact inconsistent with true religion.) That viewpoint is a belief in the literal inspiration of the Bible and in the strict truth of every word in the particular translation they follow. Of course such a view is inconsistent with the findings of biology, but it is equally inconsistent with discoveries in other fields as well." [Gordon Alexander, "Biology." Barnes & Noble Books, 8th Ed, 1962, p.221]
That is a blatant lie! Since its inception as a recognized field of science, there been many devout Christians who were and are trained biologists.
You will find lies and slander against religion, similar to that one, in virtually every science textbook, and even in social science texts.
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>>Little Joey said: "Religious opinions of individual scientists vary as much as those of any other citizens. Regardless, I have no problem with, ahem, methodologically separating science from theology in mandatory public school science classes. I also have no problem with teaching & practicing traditional religion in voluntary classes."
You have no problem with the theology of evolutionism being forced into our children's moldable brains by those in positions of authority, Joey. That reeks of the worst kind of hypocrisy.
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>>Kalamata: "No, Joey, Galileo was fodder for the scientific establishment of his day, as are the scientists of our day who refuse to bow to the establishment and kiss the ring of Darwin."
>>Little Joey said: "Oh, Danny baby boy, you just got to stop lying about this. Stupidity was never a crime, but heresy was in Galileo's time as in many other times."
Galileo was guilty of promoting observable science (heliocentricity) that was in opposition to a doctrine of the scientific establishment (the pagan Aristotlean geocentricity.)
The scientific orthodoxy has a consistent history of suppressing science in favor of ideology. It is no different today.
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>>Little Joey said: "And heresy against the Bible is what you, Danny boy, are here fighting against, under the banner of "Intelligent Design"."
You are a false witness. I was a content Christian and evolutionist, until I saw contradictory evidence. As a scientist, I could not sweep evidence under the table. It is you who are opposing science.
Foolish Child.
Mr. Kalamata