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To: LouAvul
No. That’s the history. In Jesus’ day they used two pieces, one for the head and one for the body.

Later, they used a single piece. But the one touted as the shroud of turin is a single piece, later than Jesus' day, hence is a fake.

Now you’re dancing. You do not know what you are talking about. What part of “excavated 1st Century Jewish cemeteries in Jerusalem” do you fail to grasp? That was Jesus’ day. Have you read the burial practices as written in the Mishnah? Those would be the rules that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus would have followed in burying Jesus. Obviously, you have not. Does the history you know mention anything about the phylactories? How about anything his blood touched having to be buried with him? “Life is in the blood.” I am TALKING about the history and the Jewish cultural customs that would have been hurriedly followed. Not the myth built up around it by non-cultural Jews. Actual researched history.

I have studied this topic for over fifty years. They used more than two pieces . . . When they could afford them. The Gospels report Jesus was buried according to the ways of the Jews, but it does not list everything that was done according the ways of the Jews. But you rely on the ENGLISH translation, which refers to a napkin, mistranslated from the Greek original which don’t use a term that means napkin. . . but the English CULTURAL understanding of how a smaller cloth MIGHT be used (hence calling it a “napkin” in translation which would be understood by people in cooler climes, is NOT the Jewish CULTURAL understanding of how it MUST be used, which was to bind the mouth closed, a required action, nor was it even the translator’s CULTURAL understanding. A single cloth would be used to both cover the head and the body if one of sufficient size were available.

For poor people, that may not have been possible, so they’d us what they had at hand, i.e. the common sweat cloth that almost everyone had. CLOTH of any kind up until the invention of the machine loom was expensive. . . especially large, long cloths, representing many hours or even weeks of work for several people. People who could afford one, often bought used worn out sails for shrouds. In fact, up until the industrial revolution, household linens made up a high-percentage of the value of many estates.

There were actually four to five pieces to the typical Jewish Grave Clothes when one could afford them. A syndon and three bindings, one for around the face to bind the jaw closed, one for the wrists to keep the arms across the body, and one for the ankles. A fifth could be used near the knees if necessary. These were there for when Rigor Mortis passed to prevent the body from flopping as the muscles relaxed after tetany passed and a tendency to flop occurred. Skulls with bindings around them have been discovered, but none with remnants of cloths over the faces, not one. The purpose is, as I said, to keep the jaw closed.

Jews don’t change their cultural patterns. They follow the Torah, and what is written in the Mishnah, including the burial rites and practices. They would not suddenly add to their burial practices over time. The Rabbi’s would have to find a really compelling reason to do so. . . and frankly, after the events in 70 AD and the destruction of the second Temple, I frankly doubt there’d be a movement to more expensive burials with larger single cloths in a later day as the Jews are dispersed into another exile.

The Greek words are clear. The original Greek meaning is “about” or “around” the face, not “over” the face. In other words, under the Jaw, behind the beard, then behind the hair, in front of the ears, then up and over the crown of the head, where it is tied snuggly, binding the mouth closed in death. Similarly, there are potsherds or coins placed on the eyelids. Skulls have been found with both in the sockets. Again, the purpose is to keep the eyes shut in death. Practicality rules.

However, the evidence on the Sudarium of Oviedo show that it did indeed cover the face of a crucified man for a period of time. It seems to have covered His head and face while He was hanging on the Cross and then while He was being taken down, then while He was laying face down on the ground, and then, again, while He was being carried, perhaps to the tomb, with a hand supporting HIs head as there is a bloody hand print on the face area, It then show signs of being twist-rolled corner-to-corner into a ~40” long kerchief like binding which would have been ideal length for the required jaw binding. After resurrecting, Jesus would have walked away from the stone shelf with the other grave cloths and then reached up and pulled it off from around his head, dropping it, still rolled up and tied, near the tomb entrance by itself.

At least you are not convinced that Jewish burials were like the Egyptian burials with the dead being swathed (wrapped) from head to foot in bandage like cloths. There are a lot of people who think that is the case. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing like that is written or ever been found.

85 posted on 07/21/2019 4:35:57 PM PDT by Swordmaker (My pistol self-identifies as an iPad, so you must accept it in gun-free zones, you hoplaphobe bigot!)
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To: Swordmaker
I always enjoy your informative posts. Much of it I have read before over the years, but always seem to learn something new. Really interesting about the sudarium being used to prior to the actual burial - and the bloody handprint.

Any comment on why the scriptures do not mention the cloth over Jesus’s head/face while still on the cross? Not doubting it, just wondering. Was that a common thing to do? Obviously today that is one of the first things that happens (at least in the TV shows!) is that the face is covered. And if it was a common thing to do - then not really worth mentioning perhaps?

I know the Crucifixion story focus's around Jesus’ words, and the events that point back to O.T. prophecies (they didn't rip his garment, no bones broken, etc.)

I recall the analysis of some medical doctors that studied the image on the shroud. Pretty amazing detail of the muscles, how various things respond to the hanging, the suffocation, the build up of fluids (water and blood), etc.

94 posted on 07/21/2019 8:21:52 PM PDT by 21twelve (!)
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