To summarize OIFVeteran's post #483 above, long before Confederates formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861 they:
FLT-bird: "Once a war starts, all bets are off.
Were the colonists waging a war of aggression against the British Empire?
They invaded Canada.
Were the Allies waging a war of aggression against the Axis?
They invaded Iceland - and Iran.
An aggressive defense is still defense."
That's a distinction with no meaning and no reason to pretend to.
Of course our Founders fought as aggressively as they could against the Brits, especially on the high seas and most especially in enlisting allies to help out.
That's a point often missed by you Lost Causers -- you keep telling us "oh, the Brits didn't try as hard to win our Revolution as the Union did in Civil War!"
But that's just bogus -- relatively speaking the Brits spent every bit as much in blood and treasure in the Revolution as the Union did in the 1860s.
But there was one key overwhelming difference: the Union fought only one enemy -- Confederates.
The Brits had to fight not just Americans but many others -- French especially, also Spanish & Dutch with some help from Germans, Poles and Jews.
Brits had to fight not only in the Colonies but also in Canada, the Caribbean, Gibraltar, India, Indian & Atlantic Oceans, even Africa (Senegal).
So it wasn't that Brits put less resources into the American Revolution, but rather that they had to spread those resources vastly more thinly.
Indeed, we can say the Confederacy was huge -- nearly a million square miles fought over -- but the Brits in our Revolution fought over an area ten times that size.
My point is this: the idea of a "defensive war" versus "aggressive war" is meaningless for 1776 as for 1861.
All sides did what they could without making legalistic distinctions between "defense" and "offense".
FLT-bird: "I believe you are wrong and that the Lincoln administration started and waged a war of aggression to impose its rule on people who did not consent to be ruled by it."
Confederates began their war against the United States long before formally declaring it on May 6, 1861.
Jefferson Davis himself knew exactly what he was doing when he ordered the "reduction" and surrender of Fort Sumter.
As for just who "consented to be ruled", it turns out that 4 million slaves also did not "consent to be ruled".
FLT-bird: "Do you confess it was defensive for the Confederates to have an aggressive defense policy once Lincoln started the war?"
I think your differences between "defense" and "offense" are distinctions without meanings.
FLT-bird: "Do you confess Lincoln started the war and waged a war of aggression?"
Confederates began waging war on the United States months before they formally declared war, May 6, 1861.
To summarize OIFVeteran’s post #483 above, long before Confederates formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861 they:
Seized by force dozens of Federal forts, ships, arsenals & mints.
Threatened, captured & held Union troops & officials.
Fired on Union ships.
Attacked & killed Union troops in Union states.
Repudiated debts owed to Northerners.
Sent military aid to Confederates fighting in Union states.
Individually & collectively, those amount to Confederates waging war on the United States long before they officially declared it, May 6, 1861.****
They seized military and other governmental installations on their own sovereign territory. As I outlined to him, this was no different from what the colonists did when they seceded from the British Empire in 1775...a year before the Declaration of Independence in 1776.
That’s a distinction with no meaning and no reason to pretend to.****
No its not. Its a truism in war which is very inconvenient for your argument.
Of course our Founders fought as aggressively as they could against the Brits, especially on the high seas and most especially in enlisting allies to help out.
That’s a point often missed by you Lost Causers — you keep telling us “oh, the Brits didn’t try as hard to win our Revolution as the Union did in Civil War!”
But that’s just bogus — relatively speaking the Brits spent every bit as much in blood and treasure in the Revolution as the Union did in the 1860s.*****
Straw man argument. I never said the Brits did not try to put down the colonial secessionists. They did.
But there was one key overwhelming difference: the Union fought only one enemy — Confederates.
The Brits had to fight not just Americans but many others — French especially, also Spanish & Dutch with some help from Germans, Poles and Jews.
Brits had to fight not only in the Colonies but also in Canada, the Caribbean, Gibraltar, India, Indian & Atlantic Oceans, even Africa (Senegal).
So it wasn’t that Brits put less resources into the American Revolution, but rather that they had to spread those resources vastly more thinly.****
OOOOOOK. I never disputed any of that.
Indeed, we can say the Confederacy was huge — nearly a million square miles fought over — but the Brits in our Revolution fought over an area ten times that size.
My point is this: the idea of a “defensive war” versus “aggressive war” is meaningless for 1776 as for 1861.
All sides did what they could without making legalistic distinctions between “defense” and “offense”.****
My point is that once a war starts, those who are fighting a defensive war...ie not seeking territorial aggrandizement...may well adopt aggressive tactics and strategies. Its the nature of war. Them adopting aggressive tactics and strategies does not mean they were the aggressors.
Confederates began their war against the United States long before formally declaring it on May 6, 1861.****
No they didn’t. They exercised their sovereign rights to seize and control installations on their own territory.
Jefferson Davis himself knew exactly what he was doing when he ordered the “reduction” and surrender of Fort Sumter.
As for just who “consented to be ruled”, it turns out that 4 million slaves also did not “consent to be ruled”.
Jefferson Davis did what anybody else would have in his place. If you’re going to use the “slaves didn’t consent” argument then the founding of the US was just as illegitimate. The slaves didn’t consent then either. Neither did women. Yet somehow you want to apply this standard only to the CSA and not to the USA.
I think your differences between “defense” and “offense” are distinctions without meanings.*****
No they’re not. The Southern states were content to go their own way in peace. It is Lincoln who wanted a war.
Confederates began waging war on the United States months before they formally declared war, May 6, 1861.****
Wrong.