[Old Teufel Hunden]

"Putting U.S. military personnel in foreign countries without a formal declaration of war by Congress is a violation of our founding principles, is a blatant violation of the U.S. Constitution, and would have been considered utterly repulsive by the men who founded this country. Is there any reason beyond this that even needs to be discussed?"

Alberta, I'll address this one first. First off, Article 1 Section 8 give the Congress the power to declare war. I have to talk about this a lot on here. It does not say a formal declaration of war. It does not mean that the President has to go down to the well of the Congress and ask for a declaration of war like President Roosevelt did. I agree they should have declared war. The Constitution does not tell them how to do it. If they wanted some official declaration against ISIS fine but an authorization for the use of force against ISIS in Iraq and Syria would have done quite nicely. I agree they should have done this and get these pols on the record as voting for or against it. It's in the Presidents best interest politically as well. However, that's water under the bridge and Obama didn't do it. I said at the time he should have done it and I say it now. We are dealing with 2018 and so let's not rehash the past. President Trump in his speeches said his goal was to wipe ISIS out. They still hold ground in Syria, wipe that out and then we can start going home.

"one of which (Turkey) actually is an ally of the U.S"

Yes, wonderful ally. This would be the ally that wouldn't let us use them as a staging area to go into Iraq (a war which did get congressional approval). They also wouldn't let us fly missions out of Incirlik to support the mission. This is an ally that held Pastor Brunsen illegally for about two years. This is a NATO ally who has become a dictatorship in all but name. They don't help us out one iota so I don't really care what Turkey wants. They are not our true ally. If they were our true ally they would have been fighting to wipe out ISIS along with us. Did you know unlike our 'Ally', the Kurds has long recognized Israel as a sovereign state?

"Secondly, ISIS only exists because the U.S. bungled the Iraqi invasion, occupation and half-assed "rebuilding" since 2003."

So instead of learning from mistakes, we should continue to repeat them? Iraq was very stable in 2009 - 2010. We pulled out, sectarian violence shot up and this gave rise to ISIS. So now before we actually finish the job while we have them on the ropes, we should pull out. Yeah, that makes sense.

"What if the government of Syria wants them there? Is that OK?"

Russia, Turkey and Iran are holding talks on Syria right now. The Iranians will be pulling out but if we pull out and lose our leverage they most likely won't. My opinion, that guarantees an eventual showdown between Israel and Iran in Syria sending the Middle East further into chaos and most likely dragging us back in. All because you want to see 2000 troops who are not in harms way pull out of Syria.

I think I covered it all Alberta's Child. If I missed something you felt important, feel free to bring it back up.

[Alberta's Child]

All good responses. I'll address key points one by one.

1. Be careful about letting Congress off the hook for declaring war as a condition of using military force. Look what is happening here now: Members of the same Congress that never authorized anyone to conduct a military operation in Syria are complaining that President Trump is pulling those 2,000 troops OUT of Syria. If you're suggesting that these troops should be left there simply because it's "water under the bridge," then let's just dispense with Congress and let the President and a military junta run the damn country.

2. A declaration of war is a formality by definition. There's a reason for this: It is legal proceeding as much as anything else, and is accompanied by all kinds of legal formalities that govern everyone who is involved (diplomatic ties, military operations, prisoners of war, etc.). It also means the President of the United States must act as commander in chief to defeat an actual ENEMY -- which is the main reason why Congress will NOT declare war (the U.S. is not fighting an enemy in any of these actions; we're taking sides in civil wars).

3. Turkey may not be a great ally, but as fellow NATO members the U.S. and Turkey have mutual defense obligations to each other. That's probably the perfect definition of an "ally" in international affairs. A mutual defense obligation, however, does not obligate Turkey to assist a U.S. military campaign against a country that never attacked the U.S. If you want to make the case that Turkey and the U.S. no longer have mutual defense interests, then let's work on getting them out of NATO so they can be treated like any other Islamic dump over there.

4. The U.S. pulled out of Iraq at the end of 2011 because that's when the U.S. and Iraq agreed to have all U.S. combat troops leave Iraq. You can read the U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces agreement signed by George W. Bush in 2008 for the details.

5. Needlessly pissing away thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars isn't a smart way to "learn from mistakes." I'm not sure why anyone would believe this line of thinking makes any sense. "We didn't do it right before, but you must let us try it again somewhere else."

6. Why do so many Freepers keep posting things that suggest countries like Russia and Iran are hostile occupying forces in Syria? They'll stay there as long as the Syrians want them there. What "leverage" are we supposed to have there? How about we send a family of Mexicans to move into your house when you're away for a few days -- just so they have "leverage" to make you call your Congressman to get the whole neighborhood turned into Section 8 housing?

7. If 2,000 U.S. troops in Syria are the only thing keeping the region from descending into chaos, then I'm go out on a limb here and suggest that the region isn't about to descend into any more chaos than it's already facing.