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To: rollo tomasi; Impy

I love the Electoral College. Presidential electors are persons chosen by the campaign of the party’s presidential ticket to cast electoral votes for said ticket, and such electors give their word that they will vote for such ticket. The agency principle is very clear, and electors are proxies with a single job to do and clear instructions of how to do it.

On the other hand, when people elect members of the state legislature, they do so for all sorts of reasons, including whether they got funding to fix the potholes in their neighborhood and who they would be supporting for state house speaker. If such state representatives were to elect a U.S. Senator from the state, they would be acting based on their own whims and caprices, and *not* following the instructions of the voters, given that potential U.S. Senate candidates were not in the ballot, or even under consideration, when the election took place. I think that a Texas conservative should be able to decide for himself whether he wants Ted Cruz or RINO David Dewhurst as the state’s representative in the U.S. Senate instead of letting state legislators beholden to Dewhurst make the choice.State legislators are there to pass state laws, and in a representative democracy voters entrust legislators for such purpose, but the election of representatives to Congress, irrespective of whether it’s the upper or lower house, is a responsibility that belongs to the people alone.

When the Framers created a bicameral legislature, by far the most important distinction between the houses was that the Senate had equal representation among states while House members were apportioned by population. That equal representation was the most important attribute of the upper chamber should be obvious to anyone who has read the Constitution, given that Article V, which provides for the mechanisms to amend the Constitution, expressly forbids any amendment that would deny a state its equal representation in the Senate without such state’s consent. The only other constitutional clause that Article V prevented from being modified through amendment was the restriction on Congress banning the importation of slaves, but even that exclusion had a sunset provision. We could amend the Constitution to get rid of the Electoral College (which I would oppose with all my might), but we could not amend the Constitution to give California more Senators than Alaska unless Alaska consented.

The second most important distinction between the upper and lower chambers was that the Senate was supposed to be more deliberative, with its members serving staggered, six-year terms (so only 1/3 of Senators could be replaced in a single biennial election) while the House was more dynamic and susceptible to large-scale change and its members served for only two-year terms. The third distinction between houses—that senators were elected by the state legislature while representatives were elected by state residents with the same voting qualifications as that of the most numerous house of the state legislature—was a meatless bone tossed to members of the Constitutional Convention who were concerned that the new Constitution differed too much from the Articles of Confederation. The election of senators by state legislators resulted in corruption and malfeasance, and the overwhelming majority of state legislatures over a century ago decided to get rid of the system and replace it with the popular election of senators, as evidenced by the fact that the 17th Amendment was approved by 73% of legislatively appointed U.S. Senators and was ratified by 36 out of the 37 state legislatures that voted on it between 1912 and 1913 (all but Utah).

Our Constitution preserves federalism by having citizens of the states, qua state voters, elect members of Congress and presidential electors, and by limiting Congress to its enumerated and implied powers. We don’t need the abrogation of voting rights as a way to prop up federalism, because the states are composed of their people, not their legislators. It would be foolhardy to give up one’s right to vote for representatives to Congress so that a politician votes instead.

As for your preference for limiting the franchise to property owners, I agree wholeheartedly. And I would go a step further and deny the franchise to elected officials and other persons who work for the government (excluding active-duty military) or who receive welfare payments. Our representatives in Congress (and in the state legislature, for that matter) should be responsive to the private citizens who pay for the government, not to freeloaders or to people casting self-serving votes.


84 posted on 10/09/2018 3:53:47 PM PDT by AuH2ORepublican (If a politician won't protect innocent babies, what makes you think that he'll defend your rights?)
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To: AuH2ORepublican
Your response was filled with a bunch of empty platitudes that meandered with a lack of serious analysis pointing out the difference between the FEDERAL House and Senate, thus ignored my points.

Why did the founders promote a body that represented the States (Called the Senate)? At least answer that (Remember, only property owners could vote).
86 posted on 10/09/2018 4:08:27 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: AuH2ORepublican

One more question, do you believe metropolitan (As a whole) areas should control who is elected to the Senate?


87 posted on 10/09/2018 4:10:39 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: AuH2ORepublican

Also one correction for you, the electors are appointed by the State party committee, not the campaign, so not sure where you got your info at. So they are appointed by political Party or a faction (Definitely not the actual candidate), hmmm....


89 posted on 10/09/2018 4:25:34 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: AuH2ORepublican; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj
given that potential U.S. Senate candidates were not in the ballot, or even under consideration,

The exception being 1858 Illinois when the GOP held a convention and nominated Lincoln and the dems were certain to stick with Douglas. I'm sure there must have been other such cases.

Ironically, the GOP candidates won the popular vote for leg, implying Lincoln would have won a direct election, but dems retained a narrow majority of seats.

Of course even a GOP legislature would not have been bound to elect Lincoln just cause a state convention selected him.

Before the 17th some states started having non-binding elections and the legislatures ratified the choices. The people were really DEMANDING this reform. There was no way it wasn't gonna happen.

Very much agree with restricting the franchise. Welfare recipients especially shouldn't be able to vote. Going back up to 21 (or even a little higher maybe) isn't a bad idea either. I'm 35 now (as of Oct 6th, Can you can step aside Mike Pence? ;) ) so I no longer care whether young people can vote as I once did, I was so unhappy I was only 17 in 2000.

115 posted on 10/10/2018 12:04:36 AM PDT by Impy (I have no virtue to signal)
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