Posted on 06/04/2018 9:25:52 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Participants attending the World Meeting of Families in August can be forgiven their sins or help a relative speed through purgatory.
Pope Francis has granted a "plenary indulgence" for those taking part.
In Catholic doctrine an indulgence frees you from being punished for your previously committed sins or it can be passed on to dead relatives to shorten their time in purgatory.
Even those following events on TV and radio can achieve a partial indulgence as long as they recite the Our Father, the Creed and other devout prayers.
Martin Luther's opposition to the sale of indulgences was one of the main causes of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century.
The Sacred Apostolic Penitentiary, the Vatican body dealing with forgiveness of sins, said pilgrims would have to attend confession and Mass, pray for the Pope's intentions and participate in some function during the five-day event.
The use of indulgences in Catholicism is a tradition that goes back to the Crusades in the 11th Century.
(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.com ...
Where is that laid out?
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They probably are referring to John the Baptist’s words in Matthew Chapter 3, and Jesus telling people to go and sin no more.
Of course, in light of the rest of Scripture, that doesn’t really support any kind of doctrine of purgatory nor salvation by works... but that’s likely the fig leaf used to defend how they ignore Romans 3 and Ephesians 2 and ALL of Galatians, and huge swaths of the Gospel of John, and...
Yet that's EXACTLY what Catholics claim about Mary.
Although you might be saved, you are NOT sinless.
That is true.
However, our faith is counted as righteousness in God's eyes and He can therefore relate to us as if we had the sinless perfection of His own Son, whose sinless perfection is credited to our account.
We are legally declared guilt free and freed from the penalty of our sin. We have received a judicial pardon when we threw ourselves on the mercy of the court instead of trying to pay off ourselves a debt we are incapable of paying.
Excellent!
Thank you.
And yet you have not addressed the verses above about our sins being washed away, nor have you brought up exactly how the specific doctrine of ‘Purgatory’ comes from it.
And if these are punishments from God, how is it that the Pope can overrule God’s justice, and if he CAN do so, why doesn’t he do so for everyone?
But that kind of misses the point that Purgatory is not REALLY supported by the entirety of Scripture.
If we are to accept ALL of Scripture and not just the bits that support what we already believe—the prooftext verses having already been posted upthread—then we see that Christians shall be judged by their good works, which prove the existence of grace that saves through faith. For though works do not themselves save, they are nevertheless proof of salvation. And good works shall yes, be rewarded.
In contrast, the works of those who reject saving grace are nothing but evil; even the best good works are corrupted by sin, and will so be judged.
(Also, the context of some of the verses that you’ve posted doesn’t really speak as much about temporal punishments for sin; Paul in Romans, for example, is speaking in context about how both Greeks and Jews are one in Christ, and how Jews should not set themselves above Greek Christians, because God does not show partiality.)
Having said that, I appreciate digging into Scripture instead of starting a flame war.
My friend, it's not the Pope, a man, who has the power to free everyone from sufferings of whatever kind: it is GOD who does that. Surely we agree on that!
And for that matter, if *GOD* can free everyone from ALL of the consequences and sufferings resulting from their sins, then WHY doesn’t *He* just do so out of love and mercy!? It's because God's mercy does not abolish or annihilate His justice.
People experience much of the "temporal punishment" and the"temporal consequences" from their sins right here on earth. We all know this. It can't be denied. Everyone suffers. Some of this suffering happens in this life, and some of it after death. Though God could end all suffering, He doesn't.
So do you think God is mean? That He is unjust?
Psalm 19:9
The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever; the judgments of the LORD are true, being altogether righteous.
Psalm 111:3
His righteousness endures forever.
Psalm 119:160
Your word is the essence of truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure.
Tell me, why doesn't God abolish the suffering that results from sin?
My friend, it’s not the Pope, a man, who has the power to free everyone from sufferings of whatever kind: it is GOD who does that. Surely we agree on that!
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Let me pause here.
If the Pope CAN’T free people from Purgatory, why do indulgences exist specifically TO free people from Purgatory!?
You can’t have it both ways!
"If the Church has the resources to wipe out everyone’s temporal penalties, why doesn’t it do so?"
Because God does not wish this to be done. God himself instituted the pattern of temporal penalties being left behind.
Just more nonsense that is not Biblical and makes a mockery of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
Now that’s funny.
Basically, the link is saying that the Roman Catholic hierarchy really believe that they’re violating the will of God with this indulgence crap, but they’re gonna do it anyway for... reasons.
My friend, it's not the Pope, a man, who has the power to free everyone from sufferings of whatever kind: it is GOD who does that. Surely we agree on that!
Title of the article:
Pope Francis grants indulgences for Dublin participants
Either, per Roman Catholicism, the pope is acting within his responsibility or he isn't.
So which is it????
You're having to squirm around a bit to avoid the obvious answers.
LOL.....another article from Tim Staples’ website.....some of the weakest apologetics for Roman Catholics on the internet.
Below are indulgences listed in the Handbook of Indulgences (New York: Catholic Book Publishing, 1991). Note that there is an indulgence for Bible reading. So, rather than discouraging Bible reading, the Catholic Church promotes it by giving indulgences for it! (This was the case long before Vatican II.)
Staples is telling a falsehood here....or the USCCB is telling a falsehood.
Seems the two aren't familiar with each other.
Once the printing press was invented, the most commonly printed book was the Bible, but this still did not make Bible-reading a Catholic’s common practice. Up until the mid-twentieth Century, the custom of reading the Bible and interpreting it for oneself was a hallmark of the Protestant churches springing up in Europe after the Reformation. Protestants rejected the authority of the Pope and of the Church and showed it by saying people could read and interpret the Bible for themselves. Catholics meanwhile were discouraged from reading Scripture.
Identifying the reading and interpreting of the Bible as “Protestant” even affected the study of Scripture. Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.
http://www.usccb.org/bible/understanding-the-bible/study-materials/articles/changes-in-catholic-attitudes-toward-bible-readings.cfm
You'd be accurate if you said people experience ALL of their temporal punishment right here on earth.
Some of this suffering happens in this life, and some of it after death. Though God could end all suffering, He doesn't.
Well, now you're really off the track again.
But the fact that sin is washed away, does not mean that temporal punishments or consequences are abolished. Many a forgiven sinner is in the State Pentientiary and will be for years to come.
Many a forgiven sinner is in the ICU with AIDS or an alcohol-destroyed liver or drug addiction miseries, and will be for years to come.
Many a forgiven sinner has destroyed his marriage, his family, and all his relationships by their sins, and although God has forgiven him, those consequences continue to cause him grievous suffering for years to come.
Temporal punishment due to sin can happen before or after death. Think about it. If Jeffrey Dahmer, say, the multiple torturer/cannibal/murderer, repented and was forgiven on his deathbed, he would enter Heaven surely, but he might not enter Heaven instantly. God's justice, His repayment of them according to their deeds, must still be satisfied.
Does God's mercy reduce His just recompense to nothing? I think not. Check out Job 34:11, Psalm 62:12, Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6, Col 3:25, Revelation 2:23.
You know what every one of these verses say? They all say the same thing: Romans 2:6 (LINK)... "God will repay each one according to his deeds."
(While you're there at the link, read all the cross-references. Quite sobering, that.)
Do not suppose that if a person's sins are washed away, the temporal sufferings caused by those sins are washed away at the same instant. This is not the case.
Even through the suffering, God, ever-faithful and ever-loving, provides for our purification and salvation.
That's what the doctrine of Purgatory (which just means a state of purification) is all about.
Acts 26:20 " But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should repent, and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance."
(see also Matt. 3:8, Luke 3:8 )
Now, there are various ways by which one brings forth fruit worthy of repentance or, in other words, makes satisfaction for sins. This is done through prayer, acts of charity, and self-denial, etc but also suffering through the chastisments that God Himself may send.
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Here is is what Paul spoke of: "Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism." (Colossians 3:25)
This repayment is the "chastisement" spoken of. It does not end in damnation for those who are saved. It ends in purification, righteousness and peace.
So you believe the nonsense from the BBC about indulgences?
Has the Vatican denied this?
So you believe the nonsense from the BBC about indulgences?
Has Roman Catholicism officially determined what this verse is to mean?
Once again....has Rome denied this?
still waiting...
So you believe the nonsense from the BBC about indulgences?
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