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1 posted on 02/25/2018 6:27:42 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

I guess the abacus reference is simply an illustration that the author is using to make her well reasoned points. A good read, helpful to understand what is behind this new Polish law.


2 posted on 02/25/2018 6:46:05 PM PST by prairiebreeze (Don't be afraid to see what you see. -- Ronald Reagan)
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To: nickcarraway

Thanks for the post.


3 posted on 02/25/2018 6:52:44 PM PST by thecodont
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To: nickcarraway

The author’s conclusion reminds me of Pogo’s famous line in 1968: “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

I have seen this conclusion so many times over the decades that I have to wonder if the memory of the holocaust is not slowly destroying the west.

After all, who remembers or cares about the millions stalin killed or Mao or Pol Pot.


4 posted on 02/25/2018 7:05:34 PM PST by ckilmer (q e)
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To: nickcarraway

Wow. Someone actually comparing Polish Catholics, “heirs to two thousand years of intellectual tradition,” to “simple-minded” Genesis-believing American rednecks?


5 posted on 02/25/2018 7:25:32 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vegam Yehudah tillachem biYrushalayim . . . .)
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To: nickcarraway

In a lot of things I have read over the years, I always had the impression that the Polish aspect of the Holocaust was a mixed bag.

I had the perception that there were Polish who collaborated with the Nazis openly and hated the Jews,, some collaborated out of fear of the Nazis, some Poles just didn’t want to get entangled and run afoul of the Nazis, and some Poles did get involved and had Jewish sympathies.

I have read quite a bit, biographies and autobiographies of Jews, and mostly I thought they had to distrust everyone because the issue of trust could be the difference between life and death.

I feel that same situation might be found in a lot of countries occupied by the Nazis.


6 posted on 02/25/2018 7:28:22 PM PST by rlmorel (Leftists: American Liberty is the egg that requires breaking to make their Utopian omelette)
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To: nickcarraway
The Holocaust has unfortunately suffered the inception of a cottage industry of expanded accusations. At the end of WW2, the allies found that the Wehrmacht was largely innocent of war crimes. Suddenly in the '90s, just most of those involved were conveniently dying off, all kinds of "new research" exploded onto the scene, articles and studies with such titles as "the myth of the clean Wehrmacht" and so forth.

This is the same kind of thing. The Poles, who after the Jews probably suffered more than any group during WW2, are suddenly, conveniently found to have been "the bad guys" after all. Was there antisemitism and collaboration in Poland? Absolutely, just as some members of the German army committed war crimes. But not at all to the level that is suddenly the dernier cri to claim.

8 posted on 02/25/2018 7:36:47 PM PST by Wyrd bið ful aræd (Flag burners can go screw -- I'm mighty PROUD of that ragged old flag)
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To: nickcarraway

As the son of a Holocaust survivor from Warsaw, I have some insight into this. I grew up in a community that was home to a lot of Polish survivors and my father and his cohort definitely have strong feelings that the Poles were very hateful towards Jews. Of course, Poland has a long Jewish history, some of it very good, most of it, not so good, mostly in the form of vehement anti-Semitism emanating from the Catholic Church.

The survivor view also came from many experiences where Poles behaved horribly: avidly ratting Jews out, refusing them shelter or means of escape, refusing to allow them to join partisan groups, refusing them any weapons or ammunition in the Warsaw Ghetto. From this perspective, you can probably understand (if not accept) a pretty dark view of the Polish people during WWII.

Having said that, I would not say the Poles were especially “brutal” and I fully understand why the Polish people resent the term: “Polish Death Camp”. Simply put, the Poles were no more brutal than anti-Semitic cohorts in almost every other European country during that time. Look up the Croatian Ustashi, for example, so brutal in their lust for killing Jews, the Germans were disgusted. And the Death Camps were Nazi German creations through and through.

I have also softened my opinion somewhat: as an armchair historian, I have done a lot of reading about the lot of the Polish people under the Nazis: it was a nightmare for them, as well. Their suffering doesn’t excuse the bad acts, but it puts them into a perspective against the other millions of Poles who did no harm, some who were indeed kind and yet suffered so very much.

If there are any Polish non-Jews reading this, I have particular sympathy for the way your nation was screwed over by the Allies: the French and British sat on their asses when you were invaded despite their treaty to come to your aid. Then, when it was all over, they served your country up to Stalin on a platter. People should also be aware that Poles who fled to the West and joined the fight were some of the best soldiers and airmen of the entire war, not only skilled but incredibly brave and willing to take the hardest jobs.


9 posted on 02/25/2018 7:45:07 PM PST by JewishRighter
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To: nickcarraway

Haaretz is the left wing Israeli rag that wants Israel wiped out more than the muslims do.


14 posted on 02/25/2018 8:02:52 PM PST by MarvinStinson
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To: nickcarraway
I question the origin of this upwelling of hate against the Poles. They were overrun and subjugated by the Germans, and the Soviets as well, subject to the same intense Nazi propaganda campaign as the rest of Europe. They were hardly sovereigns in their own occupied lands. No doubt there were Polish collaborators, just as there were in every European country. Note the enthusiastic SS battalions from Belgium, eg, and the enthusiastic collaboration of the Vichy French.

That there were antisemitic Poles is not likely to be doubted, as antisemitism was abroad in the European land, and long before the Nazis took over.

As noted above, Poles played a crucial part in the defeat of Hitler through their compromise of German codes.

Does this historical revisionism relate to the Poles resistance to islamic suicide? Is it a campaign by left wing crackpots to further divide the West? Maybe, just maybe, this dog should be let lie.

15 posted on 02/25/2018 8:44:03 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: nickcarraway
Poles contributed enthusiastically to the genocide of six million Jews. Poles did so because they are staunchly Catholic, simple-minded and chauvinistic

In 1967-1968, Polish Jews were caught up in a wave of persecution carried out by the Władysław Gomułka regime that led to thousands of them being expelled or fleeing into exile. The Communist perpetrators of this atrocity may have been simple-minded, but being atheists, they were certainly not staunchly Catholic. And those supine sycophants of the Soviet Union weren't all that chauvinistic, either.

16 posted on 02/25/2018 8:45:59 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: nickcarraway

Well, someone had to say it. I can still remember “Exodus” (a good book) going out of its way to blame the Poles for the Holocaust. The film “Shoah” makes much of this as well. I still remember Pauline Kael exprsesing outrage at that notion.

I’m not saying Poland was a perfect country or that many people didn’t act badly towards the Jews. But they did suffer mightily in WWII and had a strong resistance movement which was put down brutally - by Nazis. I’m sure Germany breathes a sigh of relief every time Poland is attacked.


27 posted on 02/26/2018 4:14:33 AM PST by miss marmelstein
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

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It seems to me the issue isn't whether or not there were Polish collaborators, but the wisdom of returning to Stalinesque restrictions on free speech.

30 posted on 02/26/2018 5:28:20 AM PST by SJackson (The easiest way to find something lost around the house is to buy a replacement)
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To: nickcarraway

I have family on all three sides of this... German, Polish/Ukrainian and Ashkenazi...and let me state, the Slavs were the most anti-Semitic post World War II of any ethnic group I’ve come across. That Poles actively cooperated and compensated over and above with Nazi edicts, no surprise.
Are there stereotypes, sure. But stereotypes always have some truth at their base.


31 posted on 02/26/2018 7:37:00 AM PST by Katya
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