Posted on 11/13/2017 10:07:15 AM PST by SeekAndFind
I wanted to follow-up my article from Friday morning about the allegations about former Roy Moore, the former Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court and Republican nominee in Alabama's U.S. Senate race.
At the end of my piece I wrote:
This situation, looking at how Moore responded, leaves us ultimately with two possible conclusions. Either Moore is lying or the women and The Washington Post (by extension) are lying.
In a nutshell, Christians should strive for truth. We should desire and pray for the truth to come out wherever it leads. If the accusations are true, Christian voters in Alabama should hold Moore accountable by pressuring him to drop out or by not voting for him if he doesn't. If it isn't true then the accusers and The Washington Post must be held accountable.
Our thirst for truth should override any loyalty to a candidate (or hatred of that candidate), as well as, loyalty or hatred/distrust of a particular news outlet.
Some new information has come to light that I think is particularly bad for Moore. The first piece is what the candidate said himself during his bizarre interview with Sean Hannity on Friday, and to Hannity's credit, he was asking pointed questions.
He didn't deny dating high school girls.
Looking at the transcript of this interview. He denies the allegations of the sexual encounter. He did say he dated "a lot of young ladies" after his time in the military. He admits to knowing Debbie Wesson Gibson and remembered speaking in her high school Civics class. Gibson said she was 17-years-old, and they went on several dates that did not progress beyond kissing. Moore said he does not remember whether or not he dated her when Hannity asked him, "No but I don't remember going out on dates. I knew her as a friend. If we did go on dates then we did. But I do not remember that."
He also knew one of the other women, Gloria Thacker Deason, he didn't deny going on a date with her, but said he remembers her being 19, not 18. He also denied providing alcohol for her since the county they lived in was a dry one.
Hannity then asked if he ever dated girls as young as 17-years-old when he was in his 30s.
HANNITY: At that time in your life ... Let me ask you this you do remember these girls would it be unusual for you as a 32-year-old guy to have dated a woman as young as 17? That would be a 15-year difference or a girl 18. Do you remember dating girls that young at that time?
MOORE: Not generally, no. If did, you know, I'm not going to dispute anything but I don't remember anything like that.
HANNITY: But you don't specifically remember having any girlfriend that was in her late teens even at that time?
MOORE: I don't remember that and I don't remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother. And I think in her statement she said that her mother actually encouraged her to go out with me.
He doesn't remember if he went out on dates with girls that young, but he does remember never dating girls without the permission of their mother.
He denied even meeting Leigh Corfman outside the courtroom where her mom had a custody hearing, but strangely he can't remember the dates he had.
Hannity pressed him further on asking for permission from the mother before going on dates:
HANNITY: You mentioned you'd never go out with any young girl I assume you meant like when you were 32 at that time of your life, would you always ask the permission of the parent before you would take a girl out?
MOORE: Well I mean I'm saying that in their statements that they made these two young girls said their mother actually encouraged them to be friends with me. And you know that's what they said. I don't remember. I wasn't privy to their conversation but obviously, we never had any sexual activity. There was never anything like that. And the behavior was altogether appropriate according to them.
Moore at the end of the interview said that another article coming out would not be a surprise, "I don't know what's coming next but I'm sure that in the next four weeks they're going to come out with another article because they've got an agenda and they're fulfilling their agenda right as we speak," he told Hannity.
A colleague said it was common knowledge he dated high school girls.
So there's the interview. Then on Saturday, one of his colleagues at that time said it was common knowledge he dated teenagers.
This, of course, will be shot down by Moore supporters because it comes from CNN, but I think it is a pretty damning piece of evidence that lends further credibility to the original article from The Washington Post that already looked pretty credible.
From 1982 to 1985, Teresa Jones served as deputy district attorney for Etowah County, AL. She told CNN that no one ever brought up the issue with Moore, but several people thought it was unusual that Moore would date high school girls.
"It was common knowledge that Roy Moore dated high school girls, everyone we knew thought it was weird," Jones told CNN. "We wondered why someone his age would hang out at high school football games and the mall, but you really wouldn't say anything to someone like that."
Moore served as a deputy district attorney in Etowah County from 1977 to 1982.
Conclusion:
Moore's interview with Hannity is one of the reasons why defense attorneys will tell their clients to shut up. He did not deny dating high school girls. The only thing he outright denied was dating a girl as young as 14 and having a sexual encounter with her.
At that point it is still, "he said, she said."
Based on his interview and the statement from his colleague I think it's pretty clear he dated high school girls. How many and how often we don't know.
As a father of 17-year-old and 21-year-old girls I can tell you I would most certainly not be ok with them dating a man in his 30s and frankly I would have to wonder what is wrong with a man who wants to date someone that young. Kissing them is most definitely out-of-bounds, and I would consider it (as would most sane people) inappropriate.
If I did something like that as a youth pastor and when I taught (even if I were single), I would be fired. His actions in this may not be illegal, but they are not reasonable or moral.
We don't know if he had a sexual encounter with a 14-year-old, but I certainly can't dismiss it, not after the past couple of days.
I was taking a wait and see approach, and I have seen enough. Roy Moore is not worth defending.
Originally posted at Caffeinated Thoughts
“This is from a ‘Christian’ website ?”
Self-proclaimed. They should not print such rubbish.
Nothing in this article references the Bible or church doctrine. He uses the words “faith,” “conscience,” “pray,” and “truth.”
This is an ecumenical puff piece that would more appropriately be placed in a left-wing rag like WP or NYT.
The guy justifies his position simply because he was a youth pastor and a father. This is supposed to give him authority to tell other Christians not to defend Moore.
The Bible has a whole different set of criteria than this guy or many others attacking Moore. God does not make an issue of age in the Bible. There is almost no issue of age brought up with regard to marriage. I have studied this out very thoroughly. There are only a few verses in the entire Bible that can be used to argue for setting some standard for age or age difference in marriage.
Down through the history of man, young women, still as young as 14 or even younger, have ordinarily been considered eligible for marriage. In the Bible, king Josiah had his first son at 14 and his second at 16. We see all kinds of prohibitions in the Bible about improper sexual relations, but this one (concerning age and age differences) is never addressed anywhere.
What God is concerned about is that men and women remain chaste, and that sex is something only experienced in the context of a lifelong monogamous marriage.
The Bible is concerned about consent of the parties being married, as well as their parents. Moore indicated he never dated any girl without their mother’s permission. The author here points out that he should also have got the father’s permission. (And who is to say that he did not?) Assumedly, parental permission to court / date (from a Biblical perspective) assumes that there is no extra-marital sex, there is no coercion, and the parents are the best protectors of their children.
So the author’s position is not wrong on that issue, but I really would like to know if this youth pastor ever dated anyone without first getting approval from both parents, and also if he has enforced such a strict policy on the youth he “pastored” in his church. Is he against teenage girls dating, or is he only against them dating someone much older? And how does his interjection of his personal scruples justify his advocacy against defending Moore? From my many years of experience (in contrast with the author’s) most church youth groups have sexual immorality going on within the members of the group. And there is more of the worldly concern over age differences and appearances than obeying God’s prohibition against fornication.
But let’s look at the Biblical standard for accusations:
2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”
1 Timothy 5:19
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
There is no testimony or evidence of any crime or impropriety by Moore from a legal or Biblical standpoint. As a man who has demonstrated a public commitment to follow God and honor His word, and has been attacked viciously for this, it is wrong to give any credibility to his accusers without FIRST there being strong evidence of support. That did not happen.
In allegations of sexual assault, there must be an outcry. See Deuteronomy 22. This is something investigators of child abuse use as a criterion today.
Numbers 30:5 talks about the authority of a husband or father to cancel the vows of their wives or daughters (respectively) as long as they decide in the day they hear of these vows. This shows the principle of taking immediate action. There is diminished authority and also credibility when someone brings up accusations from the distance past, especially when no outcry occurred earlier. This is one of the reasons we have statute of limitation laws.
Opponents of Moore, including at least some of his accusers, support the murder of babies, financial subsidies for this, homosexual marriage and adoption of children, and laws that punish people for disagreeing with these things.
There is no need for accusers to come forward to disclose these people secretly do these things. They do them openly. How a “Christian” website can propagate such anti-Christian attacks is unfathomable.
Decades ago my grandfather was over 14 years older than his bride. She was 18 and he was 32. I don’t know when they began walking out or courting. My great grandfather was 20 years older than his bride. A grown man casting his eye over available young women is not unusual.
Women and men used to be more mature and back in the old days a man did not marry unless he was able to support a wife - that usually placed him in his 30s.
Looking at the articles on the Trapp family, she left the convent and went to be a governess when she was 21 (so yes, she was not a teenager). She married Captain von Trapp the next year; she was 22, he was 47.
One of my high-school classmates married one of our former teachers. She had just turned 18. He was 39. Three decades and three kids later they’re still together.
RE: Looking at the articles on the Trapp family, she left the convent and went to be a governess when she was 21 (so yes, she was not a teenager). She married Captain von Trapp the next year; she was 22, he was 47.
Don’t know how a 25 year age difference is a problem. Trump is 24 years older than Melania.
Princess Diana married Charles when she was just 20 and nobody thought it yucky.
I think the issue is a 32 year old man dating a 17 year old girl. But then, what did Moore do during the date? THAT is the question. If they merely went out and had a good time, I don’t see how that becomes an issue.
RE: What God is concerned about is that men and women remain chaste, and that sex is something only experienced in the context of a lifelong monogamous marriage.
And THAT is and should be the main point of the whole issue.
So, did Roy Moore do anything unchaste during the “date” with these 17 year olds? Or did they just have a good time together?
If the latter, what’s the big deal?
Moore may have his heart in the right place, but he was born with his foot in his mouth. I have never heard anyone less able to say what needs to be said to diffuse a controversy. He just keeps saying stupid things to make it WORSE. What the hell is wrong with him? Is he senile?
In the 19th century, age of consent for most southern States, heck most of the US was 10 most of the time. The southern stereotype of older men marrying 20 years younger right when females crossed the age of consent line did not come up from thin air. Oh, in Delaware the age of consent was 7, guess Delaware should be labeled Pedoware concerning that time period.
“So, did Roy Moore do anything unchaste during the ‘date’ with these 17 year olds? Or did they just have a good time together?”
Honestly, I don’t even think these are fair questions at this point in the game.
It’s gotcha politics.
The left has been screaming about Moore being a “renegade” judge, “homophobic,” “Islamaphobic,” etc.
They tried to put other Republicans on the spot to get them to denounce Moore for these things, but this did not kill his political ambitions. So they made up allegations and sprung them a month from voting day.
The uniparty wants to stop Moore because he is NOT a pedophile like most of them. The powerful elite prefer pedophiles, rapists, and sadists because they can be easily controlled through blackmail and by supplying them with girls and boys to abuse.
Moore should be talking about what he has been talking about: religious freedom, protecting the institutions of marriage and family, safekeeping our borders, and stopping Islamic infiltrators.
He does not need to spend his campaign discussing his dating life from four decades ago. It’s ridiculous.
The only thing that is truly questionable about Moore’s past, in my mind, is that he used to be a Democrat, a long time ago. He switched parties in 1992. Maybe it was the Reagan effect, as Reagan was also a former Democrat who described the switch as “the party left me.”
Call me all the names you want. I'm still the one who believes that 32 year old men ought to keep their meat hooks off minor teenage girls.
If her parents approve and she is willing, there is nothing sinister about it at all. Funny how liberals don’t mind introducing grade school and middle school children to sex education (which goes way beyond basic biology) but now we are supposed to clutch our pearls because a 30-something man is interested in a woman who is still a teen, that is disingenuous at best. These men were interested in marriage which is an honorable intention.
What you call a minor teenage girl is in fact a woman with over a year of driving, probably carries a .380 automatic or a 38 Special revolver in addition to a can of pepper spray, and already possesses more bearing and sophistication than many 30 year old men. At least that is what many 17 year-olds are like around here. Perhaps you live in a snowflake zone. So you insinuated all are just helpless little girls and thus insult them.
No 17 year old in the US is able to legally purchase a pistol or carry a concealed weapon. There are ZERO 17 year olds that legally do this.
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