[Bob434]

[[The believer in a moral God must account for one thing, unjust suffering, while the atheist must account for the existence of everything else. --attr GK Chesterson(?)]]

The following is a long read- but well worth it- He takles the very tough quesiton about Why a "Loving God" would allow intense personal suffering:

1. The world is characterized by vast amounts of intensive and extensive suffering and evil.

 

2. After enduring a life of hardship and pervasive suffering, many (if not most) humans will end up in hell, where they will be actively tortured forever and ever.

 

3. All of this was known ahead of time by God, before He had even created ANYTHING or ANYONE.

 

4. For some reason or motive, He "went ahead" with the plan anyway, but could have chosen to not implement it (or to start a different one altogether) or to interrupt it before it "went bad".

 

…………………………………………………………………..

 

Before we begin analyzing the first three of these statements, let me make a methodological observation or two about the fourth one--the actual 'meat' of the issue.

 

Methodological Observation One:

 

The first observation is that we normally overstep the limits of the evidence when we think about this problem. By this I mean that we make conclusions, assumptions, or even 'doubts' beyond what the evidence or situation allows us to legitimately make. Consider how the emotional impact of this problem works:

 

The 'rub' of this argument can be simply stated: we cannot imagine a 'reason or motive' that would be 'big enough' to justify making the trade-off decision that God made to continue with The Plan (assuming that The Plan included the alleged items 1 through 3). And, since we cannot imagine a 'reason or motive' adequate for this, somehow many take a "next step" anyway and :

 

1. They categorically deny that such a reason could exist.
2. They assume that such a reason could NOT exist.
3. They fear that God's reason might be somehow inadequate (with the result sometimes that those that love Him are deeply troubled, even though they still have experienced God's goodness; and those seeking Him do so with more hesitancy, fearing what they might find).

http://christianthinktank.com/gr5part1.html

This fella Glen Miller has one of the best critical thinking Minds I've ever coem across- how he breaks down questions, objections, accusations etc is really something special- He gets to the meat of their objections, and presents answers in ways that many, myself included- could never in a million years accomplish. His site is well worth bookmarking- I've gone to it over and over, over the years for help with difficult questions and objections by atheists and by folks just looking for answers-

[onedoug]

The world is characterized by vast amounts of intensive and extensive suffering and evil.

Yet, these are biological constructs which would not exist in the world at all beyond certain levels of abstraction, the most highly developed of which, is the human's.

Plus, if God can do anything, it seems just as plausible that in allowing for human abstraction He chose not to know in advance what certain outcomes would be as, otherwise, what would be His point in bringing it about at all?

I'm also not sure if He might eventually clear out "Hell" altogether.

I don't really like making assumptions about God's motives. (Those other seeming ones mentioned above being merely speculation based on the sense of reason that He has given me.)

I'll take a look at Glen Miller's site and get back to you.

Thanks for responding.

[daniel1212]

he following is a long read- but well worth it- He takles the very tough quesiton about Why a "Loving God" would allow intense personal suffering: The world is characterized by vast amounts of intensive and extensive suffering and evil. After enduring a life of hardship and pervasive suffering, many (if not most) humans will end up in hell, where they will be actively tortured forever and ever. All of this was known ahead of time by God, before He had even created ANYTHING or ANYONE. For some reason or motive, He "went ahead" with the plan anyway, but could have chosen to not implement it (or to start a different one altogether) or to interrupt it before it "went bad". Theodicy

God could have,

• 1. made us (and angels) with no moral standard or sense or deprived us from the moral ability to respond to or choose good [morally insensible].

• 2. granted us free moral agency, but never have given us anything to choose between [negation of moral choices].

• 3. called man to make the Creator their ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security is what is right and what is best for man, versus finite created beings or things, and provided moral revelation and influences. But always have moved us to do good, and never have allowed us to choose evil (such as make believing in God and choosing good so utterly compelling — like God appearing daily and doing miracles on demand, and preventing any seeming evidence to the contrary so that no man could attempt excuses [effective negation of any freedom to choose]).

• 4. allowed us to do evil, but immediately reversed any effects [negation of moral consequences].

• 5. allowed us to do bad, but restricted us to a place where it would harm no one but ourselves [restriction of moral consequences].

• 6. allowed us to choose between good and evil, and to affect others by it, but not ultimately reward or punish us accordingly [negation of eternal consequences, positive or negative].

• 7. given us the ability to choose, and alternatives to chose from, and to face and overcome evil or be overcome by it, with the ability to effect others and things by our choices, and to exercise some reward or punishment in this life for morality, and ultimately reward or punishment all accordingly [pure justice].

• 8. restrained evil to some degree, while making the evil that man does to work out for the good of those who want good, and who thus love God, who is good.

• 9. in accordance with 8, the Creator could have chose to manifest Himself in the flesh, and by Him to provide man a means of escaping the ultimate retribution of Divine justice, and instead receive unmerited eternal favor, at God's own expense and credit, appropriated by a repentant obedient faith, in addition to the loss or gaining of certain rewards based on one's quality of work as a child of God. And eternally punish, to varying degrees, those whose response to God's revelation manifested they want evil, [justice maintained while mercy and grace given].

[Elsie]

If there is no god; then there is no such thing as ‘good’ or ‘evil’.