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To: BroJoeK
With DNA you have information in a symbolic representation and a reading frame code. But beyond this, a formalization of semantic closure would need to be in place prior to the first cell. This cannot just happen by accident. We know DNA has the following

1. Functional Information
2. Encoder
3. Error Correction
4. Decoder

DNA contains multi-layered information and metadata (information about how to use the information in the context of the related data) and is a more efficient storage medium than anything we’ve created. So here you have instructional data that must be translated to perform specific functions at specific times (a system that describes itself and interprets its description).

Genes are a symbolic medium - and the semantic closure is the correlation that constrains and conveys what the genes represent. For example, codons only represent amino acids if you have the system in place to interpret the functional relationship of the medium (aaRS).

Consider the data input for a CAD model that is then created (physically expressed) with a 3D printer or rapid prototype machine. Now appreciate the information transfer from an idea, to the symbolic medium of software, to the specific design – the translations that must occur – and the system(s) that must already be in place to interpret the functional relationships with the proper correlation and constraints.

This would be like blind chance creating a new language with an illiterate 'nature' already having the ability to understand (although it is mindless). Keep in mind, this is a language that codes precise plans in a very specific order necessary to manifest this amazing thing we call life.

It's at this point many will state that evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis. But here's the rub - if initial life had purpose and reason - why would all further iterations of life just be genetic mistakes that lived without reason leading to our human consciousness?

We are left with the question, "Does human consciousness and conscience ultimately come from mindlessness?" and the philosophical ramifications of our response - the worldview that follows...

349 posted on 06/19/2017 7:06:19 PM PDT by Heartlander (Prediction: Increasingly, logic will be seen as a covert form of theism. - Denyse O'Leary)
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To: Heartlander
This would be like blind chance creating a new language with an illiterate 'nature' already having the ability to understand (although it is mindless). Keep in mind, this is a language that codes precise plans in a very specific order necessary to manifest this amazing thing we call life.

The evolution answer is time and chance/trial and error. Before I got saved I believed in the religion of evolution. People barely understand the number 1000 let alone the enormous numbers involved in evolutionary probability so they just believe what they don't understand.

So I watched an evolution video by J Bronowski(sp) about how termites could develop radio telescopes over time if needed. I believed like the little evolution disciple that I was.

360 posted on 06/20/2017 9:40:48 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (How many ways do liberals hate the bible?)
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To: Heartlander
Heartlander: " But beyond this, a formalization of semantic closure would need to be in place prior to the first cell.
This cannot just happen by accident.
We know DNA has the following "

You jump ahead way too fast.
You cannot start off talking about DNA.
You must begin with organic chemistry and what natural conditions cause it to "complexify".
Those do exist and some have been identified.

Again, let's suppose that the entire process from simple Miller-Urey organic compounds to complex life forms required a million baby-steps.
As of today, a few have been identified and even duplicated, but the vast majority are still just hypothesized.
As I understand it, that is the state of the art.

Heartlander: "It's at this point many will state that evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis.
But here's the rub - if initial life had purpose and reason - why would all further iterations of life just be genetic mistakes that lived without reason leading to our human consciousness? "

In any chemistry lab or industrial process, when you create the conditions **necessary** for the desired reactions & compounds, if you then claim the results are "by accident" or "random chance", a normal person might find reasons to question your veracity.
Why would you claim "random chance" when the results (if successful) are just what you intended?

Likewise with evolution.
Nothing is random, all was intended by our Creator.
That should not be a matter requiring great debate.

You disagree?

383 posted on 06/21/2017 7:32:41 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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