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To: vladimir998
You’re the one confusing arguments. No one can possibly refute that God desires all men to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

Note that you're using a verse and an argument that Augustine specifically addressed and refuted, thus proving my point that Augustine's position is different from the Catholic church.

Universalism is the idea everyone will be saved

You're just distorting my language to make believe I am referring to universal salvation. I am referring to the same thing your Pope is referring to here:

"Pope John Paul II: "The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation." (Redemptoris Missio, n. 10).

188 posted on 04/01/2017 5:59:36 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Note that you’re using a verse and an argument that Augustine specifically addressed and refuted, thus proving my point that Augustine’s position is different from the Catholic church.”

It doesn’t prove that at all. Again, the problem is not St. Augustine. It’s just how you’re viewing him. Protestants do this with Augustine all the time - they try to isolate him as if he held the same views as Protestants (which he did not).

And what you posted from John Paul II is in no way “universalist”. Notice, he does not say that everyone is saved. “Universalism” is about everyone being saved not everyone having access to grace. A man need not have free will if he is somehow foreordained to have no possibility of access whatsoever, to grace. Yet St. Augustine believed in Free Will: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm


190 posted on 04/01/2017 7:57:13 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

https://www.catholic.com/qa/did-john-paul-ii-write-that-everyone-would-be-saved


191 posted on 04/01/2017 7:58:36 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
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