Posted on 04/01/2017 7:10:18 AM PDT by Kaslin
You're confusing arguments. You do not dispute that Catholicism teaches that grace is offered freely and openly to all and is actually available, since all receive some form of grace enabling them to be saved:
"Salvation is universal in that it is offered to all human persons. But this offer is not merely theoretical. Salvation is concretely available to all persons. The grace of Christ in the Spirit enables each person to obtain eternal life by free cooperation with grace. For "Christ died for all men," not only for some (Gaudium et Spes, n. 22).
Augustine does not teach this, but holds that grace is not given universally, and that where it is given it creates the cooperation infallibly, bringing men to salvation:
"Murmur not among yourselves: no man can come unto me, except the Father that sent me draw him. Noble excellence of grace! No man comes unless drawn. There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if you desire not to err.” (Augustine, Tractate 26)
“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)
“Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)
Note that 1 Tim 2:4 is a proof-text for universalism as used by the Catholics in their catechism. Augustine contradicts.
"... the human will does not obtain grace by freedom, but obtains freedom by grace; when the feeling of delight has been imparted through. the same grace, the human will is formed to endure; it is strengthened with unconquerable fortitude; controlled by grace, it never will perish, but, if grace forsake it, it will straightway fall; by the Lord's free mercy it is converted to good, and once converted it perseveres in good; the direction of the human will toward good, and after direction its continuation in good, depend solely upon God's will, not upon any merit of man. Thus there is left to man such free will, if we please so to call it, as he elsewhere describes: that except through grace the will can neither be converted to God nor abide in God; and whatever it can do it is able to do only through grace. "(Augustine, Aurelius. Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free WIll (Kindle Locations 45-46). Monergism Books. Kindle Edition.)
I just can’t take that seriously.
You're a partisan on the internet making flame-bating comics, as most denizens of the internet do. By definition, we cannot take what you say you don't take seriously very seriously.
By the way, do you condemn the Waldensians for blessing gay marriages or do you support it as a fellow Protestant?
I know you're aware homosexuality has been around a long time. It by no means originated with the Waldensians.
Scripture condemns homosexuality in all forms. If a group is allowing for this they have deviated from Scripture.
It doesn't take the RCC to decide that.
The plain reading of the Scripture tells us it is wrong.
Just as it tells us that priests molesting children is wrong.
When the RCC cleans that up, and removes the homosexuals from its priesthood, then you may point your finger at others.
And we still don’t worship idols.
You keep thinking that.
Jesus didn't tell a parable of 12 women, but He did of 10. The 10 Virgin bridesmaids, 5 who were ready with their lamp-oil, 5 who were not. 6 women in the gate look godly and with halos.... 6 looked evil and witch-like. Our guide said the 6th woman on the good side was the "Ecclesia" (the Church). The 6th on the evil side.....was the "Synagoguia" (Synagogue).
Sent chills up my spine knowing how medieval Roman Catholic Christians--long before Luther--saw the Jews.
Yes.
We have a messianic Jew in our congregation and he has taught me much about Martin Luther.
That changes not his work in reformation.
It does sully anyone’s attempt to put him on a perfect pedestal as a human...God used Balam’s ass to do His work, and he used Martin Luther.
If you would try to actually define the key terms, we'd have something sensible to talk about.
If it were only that simple.
What the RCC teaches about Mary goes way beyond adoration or honor.
However, that is not the issue.
What does the NT declare on this is the issue?
All prayer in the NT is directed to God.
All worship in the NT is directed to God.
We are not to kneel before the created thing and pray to it or ask it to do things for us.
We certainly are not to appeal to medals and pieces of cloth to aid in our salvation. No where is this ever sanctioned else in Roman Catholicism.
God, and only God, is worthy of our prayers, our worship and our service.
Latreia, in the NT, is used five times. Four are in reference to God (John 16:2; Rms 12:1, Heb 9:1, 9:6).
It is used one time in reference to the Israelis and the Temple (Rms 9:4).
Latreuo, the verb, meaning to worship is used 21 times.
Matt 4:10
Luke 1:74
Luke 2:37
Luke 4:8
Acts 7:7
Acts 7:42
Acts 24:14
Acts 26:7
Acts 27:23
Romans 1:9
Romans 1:25
Philippians 3:3
2 Timothy 1:3
Hebrews 8:5
Hebrews 9:9
Hebrews 9:14
Hebrews 10:2
Hebrews 12:28
Hebrews 13:10
Revelation 7:15
Revelation 22:3
Of these...all but
Hebrews 9:9
Hebrews 10:2
Hebrews 13:10
have reference to serving God directly or indirectly.
There is no use of this verb in connection with a created being such as Mary or any other believer.
The word eidolon is used 11 times in the NT.
In each instance it is used in the negative in that we are not to worship idols.
In Romans 1:23 Paul warns against worshiping the created image (eikon) of mortal man. In this particularly condemning verse he notes, "and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures."
Roman Catholicism sure seems to have done the first part in swapping out Jesus for Mary in its idols.
The reliance upon some in Roman Catholicism upon the Scapular and Miraculous Medal for salvation testify to this abomination.
In Revelation the word eikon is associated with the beast and the worship of the beast.
proskynéō, meaning worship, I go down on my knees, worship, is used 60x in the NT.
As used in the affirmative it is always directed to God.
In the negative, especially in Revelation, the worship is directed away from God. In instances in Acts 10:25 and Revelation 22:9 when Cornelius and John feel to their feet to worship Peter and the Angel respectively both were told to get up as worship is to God.
The Roman Catholic use of idols and prayers to Mary, the medal and scapular, among others, cannot be defended by Scripture upon which all Truth is based.
“You’re confusing arguments. You do not dispute that Catholicism teaches that grace is offered freely and openly to all and is actually available, since all receive some form of grace enabling them to be saved”
You’re the one confusing arguments. No one can possibly refute that God desires all men to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is pretty clear and 2 Peter 3:9 and even Ezekiel 18:27-32. Now I realize Calvin did not believe this kind of verse (1 Tim 2:3 for example) implied God’s desire to save every man. I just don’t see the subsequent understanding the way Calvinism would seem to lead it.
Now, since you make some really ridiculous comments about CCC 1058, let’s look at that now and a little later. As the CCC puts it: 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).
“Augustine does not teach this, but holds that grace is not given universally, and that where it is given it creates the cooperation infallibly, bringing men to salvation:”
Your hangup seems to be this idea of “universally given”. I’m not saying that. Neither does the Catechism.
“Note that 1 Tim 2:4 is a proof-text for universalism as used by the Catholics in their catechism. Augustine contradicts.”
1) It’s not used as a proof-text for universalism. Universalism is the idea everyone will be saved, not the idea that God doesn’t desire anyone to go to Hell. Again, here’s the actual quote from the Catechism:
“1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).”
Here’s what the CCC says in that passage:
1) The Church prays for no one to be lost.
2) It says no man can save himself.
3) It says - while directly quoting the Bible - that God desires all men to be saved.
4) And that for God all things are possible.
No where does the passage say a single thing about “universalism”. The fact that the previous two paragraphs are about Hell shows that there is no reference to “universalism”. It’s intellectually dishonest to say so. St. Augustine was not a Calvinist and Calvinists are not Augustinians. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/calvinists-are-not-augustinian/
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/06/augustinian-soteriolog/
One of the problems any time a Protestant anti-Catholic wants to debate about the ECFs is that he knows almost nothing about them. Many of the Calvinists I know can talk all day about their interpretation of Augustine’s views on salvation and yet have never once asked themselves how Augustine’s understanding of the sacraments could possibly fit into that. If Calvinists really hold to St. Augustine’s view then why don’t they believe in the Sacraments as he did or even believe in prayers for the dead as he did? The answer is that St. Augustine was Catholic and Calvinists are Protestants. They agree on some things but disagree on others.
“I know you’re aware homosexuality has been around a long time. It by no means originated with the Waldensians.”
But your heroes, the Waldensians/Methodists, made a Church ceremony out of homosexual marriage. Apparently if any sect embraces Protestantism it eventually embraces gay marriage too.
“You keep thinking that.”
Knowing. Because it’s a fact.
I really think a big part of peoples' incomprehension nowadays stems from the fact that we live in a ceremonially threadbare culture. We have never seen the coronation of a Byzantine Emperor or even the Queen of England; we have no idea the solemnities which used to accompany even the opening day of a secular Parliament.
The only time we see huge floral displays is at the Rose Bowl Parade (DO click on this)or similar pageants or civic fiestas accompanied by floats and other conspicuous outpourings of ornamental pageantry.
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Floral display on a sports banquet salad bar --- of all things.
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About a billion examples of Wedding floral decoration and Wedding Photography for the Wealthy and Ostentatious
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Some kind of theatrical stage design
Culturally, in the US, we give our most lavish honors to celebrities, sports gods, EUrocrats, billionaires, the sexy and status-y --- and not to those whom God honors.
In contrast, God likes to lift up the lowly ("The Mighty One has done great things for me").
I don't particularly like ostentation in the opening ceremonies of the Olympics. I do get a kick out of garlanding the saints - the martyrs - the meek - the nobodies of this world who are so cherished that even their blood is precious to Him.
Icon of the Coptic Christian New Martyrs of Libya
`p>
Our honors to the martyrs and saints and especially Mary, anticipate, in a tiny, tiny way, the glories God has prepared for His humble servants and handmaids. And why would He skimp on anything, for those with whom He has redeemed by His Own Blood and made "partakers of the Divine nature"?
That's 2 Peter 1:4. Our little processions and icons and honors --- huh ---the feeblest, palest anticipation of the honors of Heaven!
"Way beyond adoration?"
Skip it. Clueless.
Christ is Truth. He is not based on Scripture. On the contrary, Scripture, like Creation, like the Church, like your life and mine, is based on Him.
Think of Creation --- the very heavens and earth, things visible and invisible, which God created because of the sheer outpouring of His generosity. These are not Scripture. The are not "based" on Scripture. They spring forth because they were spoken by God's Almighty Word. And they are true as well.
Scripture is not the beginning and end of Truth or the only guarantor of Truth or the entirety of all Truth. To say that would be idolatry. It would be attributing to a created thing, that which can only be attributed to God.
Not sure what your point is here. Scripture is not the beginning and end of Truth or the only guarantor of Truth or the entirety of all Truth. To say that would be idolatry. It would be attributing to a created thing, that which can only be attributed to God.
To be clear...you're saying God's infallible Word is not sufficient for us to know Him? Or have salvation?
John would disagree with you as would the Bible itself.
To allow this argument, that not all truth is found in Scripture, means you cannot deny any other belief system what they teach is false.
The Mormon, the Muslim, the Hindu, etc, all believe their non-Biblical teachings, as does Roman Catholicism to be inspired and truth.
There can only be on source of Truth. That is God. God has given us His written Word.
The Bible is replete with example after example of the appeal to the written Word as authority.
To allow other non-biblical writings to be accorded the same authority as Scripture opens many problems for the Catholic and has caused many false teachings to arise in Roman Catholicism.
14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:14-17 NASB
Can you offer proof of your claim that I've ever said these are my heroes?
If not, your statement is a lie and I require a retraction as you've made this a personal statement.
Your argument that the embrace of homosexual marriages began with Protestants, like many of yours, fails....though I doubt you'd realize it.
I'm not aware of believers praying to flowers or weddings or relying upon them for answered prayers or salvation in the manner Roman Catholics do with Mary.
This sounds like a Tim Staples argument. And it fails on every level.
Come on, Mrs-D....you can do better than Tim Staples!
Hey....you wanted definitions. I gave a whole bunch so we’d have the NT understanding of them.
Again, ridiculous. Why not respond to what I actually said, instead of substituting your own words and then responding to that? I
“Can you offer proof of your claim that I’ve ever said these are my heroes?”
Okay, duly noted, Waldensians are not your heroes.
“If not, your statement is a lie and I require a retraction as you’ve made this a personal statement.”
BWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh, get over yourself.
“Your argument that the embrace of homosexual marriages began with Protestants, like many of yours, fails....though I doubt you’d realize it.”
I didn’t say it began with Protestants . . . but that or among liberals Jews would be a fact.
>Good or ill, Luther wrought a religious revolution that destroyed the social and religious order of his day. Christendom was irrevocably changed. That’s worth discussing in every detail to those who are interested in the truth and history.
Luther is an interesting guy. He democratized Christianity and then shoved it into a state church when democratized Christianity caused total chaos and mass destruction in Germany. People tend to read mostly good things about the Reformation, but the facts on the ground was almost a 1/3 of Germany dead or destroyed thanks to Luther and co before The Peace of Westphalia restored the state church system.
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