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I would describe your last post to me with one word. Unhinged.

What you posted made no sense whatsoever. It was not connected to the verses you provided. It was outside the scope of reality. It was just bazaar.

Here you are, your third post in a row not praising God, but stooping to explain His unrighteous behaviors. Shame on you.

Let's skip forward here while I'm addressing it.

What I note is that you do not seek to edify, but rather to provide information that begs the issue if God is a just God.

I seek to proclaim what God has said in His Word and to correct those that have corrupted or occluded its meaning.

This is an undeniable falsehood. All one has to do is review my previous response to you, to recognize the truth of what I am saying here.

No, what you seek to do is cast God in the worst possible light, making stuff up as you go if you have to. It's truely bazaar. That's the only word that fits.

You also introduce chaos into the subject matter.

The post I linked above wasn't even agumentative. It just tossed out idiotic concepts with no connection whatsoever to reality, the verses you mentioned.

That post was the very thing you said here that you wanted to avoid, or correct. It's difficult to remain non insulting here it was so off base.

(editorial note: Post 433 replaced post 429. I wrote 429 late last night when I was tired. It needed some clarifications. 433 says the same thing a little clearer.)

(editorial note: I recognize that you addressed post 429. I had hoped to replace 429 before you responded, but you had already begun addressing 429.)

God does not want us to serve out of fear...

God's revelation, the Bible, is in conflict with your assertion.

No, your interpretation of God's word is what is in conflict with God's word. Once again I suggest folks review my response to your post prior to this one.

In that response I call you out on the fact that your descriptions of God's actions bore no connection whatsoever to the scriptures you provided. You fabricated the whole thing.

Before going further, let's get one thing clear. God is a God of love. He is not a God of hate. He DOES NOT want people to serve him out of fear.

Going in, people need to keep something in mind.

Fear (defined) As it relates to fear of God...

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.
-- Synonyms: awe, respect, reverence, veneration.

We are not talking about a fear seeking Heavenly Father that wants his subjects to tremble before Him. Jesus was God manifested on Earth. The Holy Spirit is the manifestation of God on earth. These are two thirds of the Holy Trinity. They are filled with mercy and love, and you're seeking to cast God in Heaven as an evil tyrant desiring his subjects to live in "stereotypical" fear. Nonsense.

Let's see, the God of heaven that sacrificed his only Son for us, is a tyrant only desiring us to live in fear of Him? Not buying it.

Yes, He does want us to respect Him. Lack of respect for Him is sin. Yes, you read that right. Something worth thinking about.

For the sake of brevity I will only proof text from the New Testament.

    Revelation 19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

    Revelation 14:7 ... saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

    Revelation 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

This is just one more bazaar inclusion in your posts to me. Some of Revelations is very hard to extrapolate meaning from. The symbolism is open to a myriad of interpretations. None the less you dip into one of the symbolisims to yank out this example of what you must seem to think proves God desires us to fear him. This wasn't God. It was three humans. Due to the circumstances, sure folks were frightened by what they were seeing. Is there a message in there that God wanted them to be frightened of Him? Is there a message in there that God wanted people to be frightened at all? No. Why include it when it's inclusion simply serves to display your desperation to prove God wants us to be afraid of Him? Link to chapter 11, so folks can understand the context It's just bazaar.

    1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

    1 Peter 2:17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

    Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

    Ephesians 5:21 ..submitting to one another in the fear of God.

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

    2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

And as a rebuke about those who do not fear.

    Romans 3:16-18 Destruction and misery are in their ways; And the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes."

4. reverential awe, especially toward God:
-- the fear of God.

This clearly references people who do not reverence God, heed His Word, and abide by His directives.

Let's run a little test here:

1. A person is so afraid of God he wets his pants just thinking about Him. Other than that he commits every sin known to man.

2. A person respects God. He does not fear him. He lives a life as close to what God directed us to.

3. A person is so afraid of God that he does everything God told us to do because otherwise he'd be burned up in the lake of fire.

Which of these do you think describes God's actual desire from his followers?

Obviously you can't pick two because it involves no fear. You'd have to pick one or three. I suspect you'd pick three.

Two is the obvious answer to the rest of us.

Let's consider a test case:

1. A wife loves her husband and does everything she can to please him, and give him the best life she can. She is faithful and never harbors thoughts about him that are bad. She is never tempted by anyone else. She trusts hm completely She expects him to return her love and he does over and over.

2. A wife fears her husband. She does everything she can to please him and give him the best life she can, because she knows he'll beat her if she doesn't. She is faithful, but she knows he is vengeful. She is tempted, but never acts out on it due to fear. She cannot trust him. She expects his love to end the moment she doesn't do exactly what he says.

Which of these is the model God desires us to live by? One can't work for you, so you're essentially left picking 2. Number one is obviously correct to those of us who grasp the character of the true and living God..

What I note is that you do not seek to edify, but rather to provide information that begs the issue if God is a just God.

I seek to proclaim what God has said in His Word and to correct those that have corrupted or occluded its meaning.

With all due respect, you're failing miserably. I am not convinced this is your goal at all. The arguements you make here are the exact arguments of the fallen one. You don't see that?

Satan has to make these very arguments to raise doubt about God, His justness, His methods of ruling the universe. Only by making such arguments stick can Satan proclaim himself to be the better choice for leader.

God's love, compassion, and just ways, prevail, but only to those who can grasp it. You don't. I have seen no evidence of it whatsoever.

If one fears God out of a humble heart he would not dare to judge God.

And yet here you are doing just that. You have judged Him to desire us to serve Him out of fear.

God is just and so justice is not an attribute that is external to God that can used as a standard to judge Him, but is intrinsic to who He is and so justice is a concept that reflects Godliness.

How can you say God is just? Remember, above you said we cannot judge God.

You laid out several concepts there in a manner that was more confusing than enlightening. On one part of it, you're just dead wrong.

You are so wasted on this topic. God cannot be judged? What numbskull told you that?

Every creature in the universe will kneel in respect of God. Why would they do that for a person about whom they never contemplated His righteousness?

Subjects here on this earth, and throughout the universe will see the justness of God's ways.

I submit that even the fallen will at some point agree that He was just toward them.

1. He laid out simple easy to understand guidelines
2. He didn't force them to comply
3. He asked them to observe his rules out of love, not fear, but did explain the wages of sin
4. He provided the Holy Spirit to each of them to help them understand right from wrong and make the right decisions
5. He provided His own Son as a sacrificial lamb to purchase our souls
6. He provided the scriptures to edify and convict us
7. He promised to restore our planet
8. He promised to restore us
9. He promised to put an end to evil and the suffering and death on our planet

Not judged? That's just sophomoric fodder...

The whole reason God allowed Satan to live was related to Him (God) being judged. You didn't know that?

You have adopted the great deciever's song and dance 100%, and haven't a clue you have done so.

You attempt to come at this from an intellectual vantage point, but are completely blinded to the true nature of your agruments

I don't say you're an evil person, but you are very badly misguided in your thoughts here.

What you seek to tell me is that the God that would not strike Lucifer down, is a God that would condemn men and not give them the power to decide their own fate.

    Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yes He will, at the end of the full revelation of sin..., not before. Ask yourself why? Why at this time and not at the inception of Sin in heaven?

It's because God knew that it would be impossible for beings across the universe to grasp what the tiniest sin would result in.

God Himself could not merely strike Satan down, because He would certainly be judged to be selfish, vindictive, and unjust.

Only after sin resulted in the corruption of man, and man came to the point of destroying all of humanity could God then say, "This is what I knew from the beginning, but you had to come to know as well."

God cannot be judged? LOL, you have missed the whole subject of the conflict of the ages, good vs evil, God in the end being seen as a just and righteous God.

God is transcendent of time, His judgement and justice is not according to your understanding or timeline, but make no mistake it is complete and thorough.

Yawn...

For a more thorough apprehension of these doctrines, I suggest the following for further study and understanding of the scriptures from the perspective of the founders and the reformation: The Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin and Bondage of the Will By Martin Luther.

You insult these men by suggesting I go to them to learn more after seeing what you have sought to teach here.

If you can't get the Bible right, why should I venture off into the secular?