[[I do not believe Jesus spoke absurdities that have no basis in reality and that would be contrary to sound doctrine. ]]
So what are you saying? That the passage is talking about a real event? Because everything we know about God’s word show that it oculd not have been a real event- Or are you perhaps suggesting this parable shouldn’t have been included in God’s word?
[[your answer studiously avoids the question as to why Jesus would utter an oxymoronic analogy using things that supposedly do not exist]]
I did not avoid that- I answered why He did such a thing- I also pointed out many reasons why the parable can not be true event-
A parable is nothing ore than an analogy meant to point out a principle- there is no ‘law’ or ‘rule’ that states analogies have to be true or realistic in order to get a principle across
When Jesus said “Destroy this temple and it will be raised back in 3 days’ Was He not ‘telling a whopper’ as you contend? Jesus isn’t a literal temple- nor is He a literal fig tree- it is every bit as ‘absurd’ as you put it to compare Himself to inadamant objects as it is to tell a parable about events that couldn’t happen in order to drive home the point that Greed and uncaring attitudes will take a man to hell because greed and uncaring attitudes become their god and harden their hearts to the point that nothing else matters-
[[Sometimes in the Bible it is obvious when a parable is a parable, and when real events are real events. Sometimes the reader can easily distinguish between things to be taken literally and things to be taken figuratively.
Even Jesus’ own disciples were often confused by his figurative speech and parables. For example on another occasion he told his disciples to “be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and the Sadducees” and they misunderstood, thinking that he was reproaching them for having forgotten to buy bread. ]]
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_lazarus.htm
(Note I do not agree with this site’s idea of ‘soul sleep’, I give several other reasons why this must be a parable which have nothing to do with ‘soul sleep’ in a previous post-
“This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing they do not see, though hearing they do not understand’” (Matthew 13:13)
“Although I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly”. (John16:25)
And just for the record- Jesus was very possibly prophesying about Raising Lazarus from the dead in this parable as well according to some-
[[Another source showing what Jews of Jesus’ day believed is a book called 4 Maccabees, which was probably written by Jews in Egypt about a generation after Christ. In this work of fiction Abraham, Isaac and Jacob receive and welcome Jewish martyrs into the world of the dead:
“After our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us” (4 Maccabees 13:17). ]]
This parable was to Jews- who would have understood Jesus was using a common cultural superstition in His Parable- something THEY could understand, but something that was not biblical-
This is an important point- Many things in God’s word are misinterpreted because the reader does NOT understand the cultures of the day, nor do they realize that Jesus’ miracles and parables were VERY Steeped in Jewish tradition- and the reason for this was 1: Because Jews were God’s people, and 2: Because After hearing AND Seeing Jesus’ VERY specific miracles, steeped in Jewish Tradition and lore, could NOT turn around and claim they ‘didn’t know He was the Christ’ Because Jesus was fulfilling ALL the Jewish prophesies to the letter-
The Pharisees taught the unbiblical concept that when people died they went to either Abraham’s boson, or to fiery hell-
Jesus’ parable was spoken TO these same Pharisees- using their own words against them and pointing out in stark undeniable terms to them that the law DOES NOT SAVE as evidenced by the rich man in hell
Note, that Jesus was NOT accommodating their myths- He was tearing their Myths apart- pointing out to them that everything they taught was NOT biblical
They taught that the ‘great gulf’ could be crossed in an agnelic boat- Jesus showed by His parable that this was a lie
They taught that the living could pray for those in hades so that the Lord would have mercy- Jesus put the LIE to this teaching in His parable
[[Another contradiction is that in other Jewish myths Abraham is credited with the ability to do what the Rich Man asks (v.27) and resurrect the dead. For example in the 1st Century Jewish fiction The Testament of Abraham the patriarch Abraham pleads for the dead and returns 7,000 to the living.
“Then Abraham arose and fell upon the earth, and [the Angel of] Death with him, and God sent a spirit of life into the dead and they were made alive again.” (Testament of Abraham ‘A’ 18:11).
But Jesus again contradicts the myths, and has Abraham refusing to raise Lazarus:
“They have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them” (v.29)
This reflects Jesus’ own condemnation of the Pharisees in John 5:39. ]]
(Same link)
Can man speak from hell to those in heaven? The bible says no I believe-
[[The source for the unusual Hades in Luke 16:23, as with the source for the ‘Bosom of Abraham’ itself, lies outside the Bible in the myths of the 1st Century. Many Jewish myths survive today (eg. in the Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha, Dead Sea Scrolls, Talmud, etc.). In these works a variety of fantastic pictures of Hades are given that have no connection with the Old Testament. One of the closest to the picture given in Luke 16:23-24 is in a work called The Apocalypse of Zephaniah. ]]
[[and that would be contrary to sound doctrine.]]
As mentioned, there was a reason for this parable- and that reason was to put the LIE to the false teachings of the Pharisees- This parable was VERY Jewish oriented- and not meant specifically for non jews (except to show that greed and uncaring attitudes are bad when you do not have the Lord as Savior- Your works will NOT get you to heaven)
I posted because the story of the rich man and Lazurus refutes the notion of soul sleep, which was introduced into the thread as if it were a Biblical teaching and it is to that which I responded.
When Jesus said “Destroy this temple and it will be raised back in 3 days’ Was He not ‘telling a whopper’ as you contend? Jesus isn’t a literal temple- nor is He a literal fig tree- it is every bit as ‘absurd’ as you put it to compare Himself to inadamant objects as it is to tell a parable about events that couldn’t happen in order to drive home the point that Greed and uncaring attitudes will take a man to hell because greed and uncaring attitudes become their god and harden their hearts to the point that nothing else matters-
For the record, I nowhere contended that Jesus was 'telling a whopper', anywhere, ever, including your example of when he said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again." And when he said that he was not using a parable or comparing himself to the temple building because the text explicitly states later that when he said that, "... He was speaking of the temple of His body.".
I am simply pointing out the absurdities that logically follow from a soul-sleep premise in light of Luke 16.
Cordially,
Really? Since the Lord only used real and known physical realities in parables to represent spiritual realities, then it is apparent that He held that analogies have to use them, not science fiction, for which you have zero precedent.
And if that which represents spiritual realities is fiction, then why believe the spiritual one is real?
When Jesus said “Destroy this temple and it will be raised back in 3 days’ Was He not ‘telling a whopper’ as you contend?
Not at all, as here again the Lord was using a known physical realities in parables to represent a spiritual realities. Why you could see the fallacy of your argument is the question.
Even Jesus’ own disciples were often confused by his figurative speech and parables. For example on another occasion he told his disciples to “be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees ...
True, but only as to what the physical reality represented, not because He presented something that did not exist at all. If the Lord said, beware of the leaven of the Romulans, then that would be analogous to the Lord speaking of a postmortem man conscious and in torments when such did not exist.
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_lazarus.htm (Note I do not agree with this site’s idea of ‘soul sleep’,
Close enough. You just deny the rich man suffering postmortem torment because their bodies are in the grave, like they do, and have the Lord teaching science fiction in order to teach a spiritual reality. Sound just like what a cult would teach.
[[Another source showing what Jews of Jesus’ day believed is a book called 4 Maccabees, which was probably written by Jews in Egypt about a generation after Christ. In this work of fiction Abraham, Isaac and Jacob receive and welcome Jewish martyrs into the world of the dead:
And Jude quoted a true part of the book of Enoch, showing that coming from a source that is not wholly inspired does not make it fiction. Paul even quote a pagan prophet.
This parable was to Jews- who would have understood Jesus was using a common cultural superstition in His Parable- something THEY could understand, but something that was not biblical-
Nonsense. The sinless Christ would never teach of a place and experience that nowhere existed, esp. as serious as the afterlife, and to use such a fairy tale as representing a spiritual reality impugns the credibility of the latter!
The rest of your attempt to rationalize this is also pathetic
Jesus’ parable was spoken TO these same Pharisees- u
And to His disciples. (Lk. 16:1, 17:1)
Note, that Jesus was NOT accommodating their myths- He was tearing their Myths apart- pointing out to them that everything they taught was NOT biblical
That is absurd. If that was the case then the Lord would have taught something like that the rich man simply was buried and was tormented, or (if you disallow that) how he later faced the final judgment, But instead, what your examples show is that the Lord corrected false aspects by providing the correct reality, of a man who died but was in torments, in contrast with the elect...
But Jesus again contradicts the myths, and has Abraham refusing to raise Lazarus:
Consider the lunacy: Jesus is correcting myths by teaching a modified myth! Are you for real?!
It is not surprising that you invoke a cult.
This exchange is best to be over. May God have mercy on you.