Posted on 09/19/2015 6:13:19 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
“There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell.” So wrote the agnostic British philosopher Bertrand Russell in 1967. The idea of eternal punishment for sin, he further notes, is “a doctrine that put cruelty in the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture.”
His views are at least more consistent than religious philosopher John Hick, who refers to hell as a “grim fantasy” that is not only “morally revolting” but also “a serious perversion of the Christian Gospel.” Worse yet was theologian Clark Pinnock who, despite having regarded himself as an evangelical, dismissed hell with a rhetorical question: “How can one imagine for a moment that the God who gave His Son to die for sinners because of His great love for them would install a torture chamber somewhere in the new creation in order to subject those who reject Him to everlasting pain?”
So, what should we think of hell? Is the idea of it really responsible for all the cruelty and torture in the world? Is the doctrine of hell incompatible with the way of Jesus Christ? Hardly. In fact, the most prolific teacher of hell in the Bible is Jesus, and He spoke more about it than He did about heaven. In Matthew 25:41–46 He teaches us four truths about hell that should cause us to grieve over the prospect of anyone experiencing its horrors.
1. Hell is a state of separation from God.
On the day of judgment, Jesus will say to all unbelievers, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire” (v. 41). This is the same sort of language that Jesus uses elsewhere to describe the final judgment of unbelievers (see 7:23).
To be separated from God is to be separated from anything and everything good. That is hard to conceive because even the most miserable person enjoys some of God’s blessings. We breathe His air, are nourished by food that He supplies, and experience many other aspects of His common grace.
On earth even atheists enjoy the benefits of God’s goodness. But in hell, these blessings will be nonexistent. Those consigned there will remember God’s goodness, and will even have some awareness of the unending pleasures of heaven, but they will have no access to them.
This does not mean that God will be completely absent from hell. He is and will remain omnipresent (Ps. 139:7-8). To be separated from the Lord and cast into hell does not mean that a person will finally be free of God. That person will remain eternally accountable to Him. He will remain Lord over the person’s existence. But in hell, a person will be forever separated from God in His kindness, mercy, grace, and goodness. He will be consigned to deal with Him in His holy wrath.
2. Hell is a state of association.
Jesus says that the eternal fire of hell was “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). People were made for God. Hell was made for the Devil. Yet people who die in their sin, without Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, will spend eternity in hell with the one being who is most unlike God. It is a tragic irony that many who do not believe in the Devil in this life will wind up spending eternity being tormented with him in hell.
3. Hell is a state of punishment.
Jesus describes it as “fire” (v. 41) and a place of “punishment” (v. 46). Hell is a place of retribution where justice is served through the payment for crimes.
The punishment must fit the crime. The misery and torment of hell point to the wickedness and seriousness of sin. Those who protest the biblical doctrine of hell as being excessive betray their inadequate comprehension of the sinfulness of sin. For sinners to be consigned to anything less than the horrors of eternal punishment would be a miscarriage of justice.
4. Hell is an everlasting state.
Though some would like to shorten the duration of this state, Jesus’ words are very clear. He uses the same adjective to describe both punishment and life in verse 46. If hell is not eternal, neither is the new heaven and earth.
How can God exact infinite punishment for a finite sin? First, because the person against whom all sin is committed is infinite. Crimes against the infinitely holy, infinitely kind, infinitely good, and infinitely supreme Ruler of the world deserve unending punishment. In addition to that, those condemned to hell will go on sinning for eternity. There is no repentance in hell. So the punishment will continue as long as the sinning does.
The dreadfulness of hell deepens our grateful praise for the salvation we have in Jesus Christ. Hell is what we deserve. And hell is what He experienced on the cross in our place.
Believing the truth about hell also motivates us to persuade people to be reconciled to God. By God’s grace those of us who are trusting Christ have been rescued from this horrible destiny. How can we love people and refuse to speak plainly to them about the realities of eternal damnation and God’s gracious provision of salvation?
Clearer visions of hell will give us greater love for both God and people.
This post was originally published in Tabletalk magazine.
[[The condition of being eternally angry at God is the condition of hell. In a real sense its occupants had a hand in architecting its miseries. They denied His love access to their hearts and left the only thing possible as an alternative — the enslaving charm of Satan.]]
Exactly- there is a complete absence of Any good influence in Hell- The only thing present in Hell is Sin- and sinners and the Evil One- completely devoid of any good influence-
The Holy Spirit is the only thing restraining sinners today- take his influence away, and the one in hell is consumed by the Evil they chose in life-
Sorry, I don’t think I understand. :) Translate that for a third grade mind like mine...sff
Does repentance cover that “mortal sin”?
Isaiah 55:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Additional Scriptures that may help.
Mark 10:27, Matthew 19:26, 1 Corinthians 1:25
Isaiah 45:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Romans 9:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Your question is flawed a true Christian has hope.
Romans 8:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
John 10:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Please point out In the verse where he said he did not want heaven, while If you read what i said then you should have seen that that rich man's please for relief would easily can translate into a a desire for the comfort of Heaven, as does the gulf that forbids it.
The chasm statement is stating that even if one should want to- they can not- because there’s a chasm- that’s it-
Which refutes what i said how??? The fact that something prevents escape to Abraham;s bosom indicates a desire to do so, unless you think the Berlin wall was simply to keep the West out. Souls tyherein did not need to know a lot about the West in order to desire it in essence, and likewise those in Hades.
But it appears you simply dismiss what is reasonable in the light of Scripture in order to maintain what is not taught in Scripture.
Yep- He selfishly wanted God to suspend his punishment for some relief
Are you for real? You just invalidated the Lord's many attempts motivate souls to want to chose their eternity by warning of torment, and which means that that those who were saved by fear are invalidated. Fear of torment is a valid motivation, but it does not end there.
[[It is to such basic desire to escape wrath that the Lord appealed to in advising us to cut off whatever would send us to Hell. Therefore it can be said that the lost in Hell would want Heaven as much as a person who was motivated to repent due to the warnings alone of unquenchable fire. How much more the reality.]]
Oh my word- now we’re really reaching!
Now you are really being unreason-able or stubborn. To the mature believer Heaven represents far more than simply escape from just punishment and comfort, but to the lost it need not be in order for them to be saved, though repentance itself is implicit in believing.
[[Actually, weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on, which presupposes they desired it.]]
Sure, verse please? O
Once again it is apparent that you are not seeing things i wrote, for the very verse i supplied next shows weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on. Which, along with the rich man's plea for the repentance of his brethren. refuted your assertion that there nothing "about repentance or wanting to cross into Heaven."
The only ‘sadness’ they will have is because they thought God would forgive them despite them rejecting Him-
Sure, verse please or more reading into a text what is not indicated or said? Instead, the Lord did not say "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," when ye shall see that you will not be forgiven, but "when you see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28) They
[[Wrong, as God would be perfectly just in showing no mercy, and is under no obligation to do so, or to grant repentance even in this life]]
I guess you missed the whole point-
Wrong, as your premise was that God would be an unjust God if he shows no mercy when people finally ‘recognize the mistake they’ve made’.
[[Wrong, as their is no indication in God’s word that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God,]]
there is NO love in hell- NONE- Hell is NOT a place where love can thrive or even exist- There is NO God there, NO Holy spirit, and nothing but unrepentant hatred of God
So faced with the fact that the rich man showed love for his brethren, then like annihilationists who conclude there is no eternal torment since God is love, despite what the Word says, you reason that souls in Hell must be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God since there is no love in Hell, despite that Scripture shows the rich man's love for one's own (unless you want to deny that, and redefine love). Instead, what is reasonable is that the realization that you are culpable for the suffering of others, if so, and can do nothing to help them, only adds to the torment.
a place for people with an absence of love-
Again, nowhere is this taught in Scripture, and the reality is that there are plenty of souls who are lost today who love others, and can even engage in selfless sacrificial acts on their behalf. The problem is that their ultimate love for others things above God prevents them from receiving the Lord Jesus.
I’m sorry, I missed the part where he was ‘humble’ could you point htat out please?
I am not surprised you miss anything by now that refutes you, but a man in torments pleading for mercy ("Father Abraham, have mercy on me,") for just one drop of water, and entreating ( "I pray thee therefore, father,") that someone be sent to warn his brethren of this place of torments, is well evidencing a humbled state. Of course, since you can make this man a rebellious contentious dictator then I am sure you can redefine that as needed.
Ok- again- I missed where the verse indicates that- When one gnashes teeth, it’s generally in extreme anger
But we must go by what it says in context.
[[Wrong, and frankly absurd, as earnestly desiring mercy is not dictating and being contentious in continued disobedience ]]
Oh for crying out loud- now it has to be ‘continual’ in order to be considered sin? What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
Ahem, those are your words i am responding to: "that does not sound like humbled, non contentious- but rather continued disobedience." What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
[[Which is your error, that of assuming men souls in this realm like the rich man was will be like raging at God in the next out of perceived injustice.]]
Don’t put words in my mouth- I never said ANYTHING about ‘perceived injustice’- I have rather consistently said man is in a state of complete separation from God and their sin nature is now unleashed and unrestrained- and their rage will fester against God along with the rage of their master Satan whom they went to willingly-
Besides your premise unleashed and unrestrained sin nature and rage against God being conjecture which is nowhere said, and only the opposite is said, if these souls are not raging against God due to perceived injustice - which is what the devil originally told Eve she was a victim of - then you have men souls raging against God knowing they are getting the due reward for their sins. Interesting but unlikely. I assumed perceived injustice would be consistent with your assertion of sin nature raging against God, as such false charges are a manifestation of it. Sorry.
There will be NOTHING in them that will desire God- NOTHING- There is NOTHING in sinful man on this earth alive that desires God- NOTHING- it is only the work of the Holy Spirit that draws a sin loving self loving person of perdition to God
The latter is true, but being dead in sins does not mean one is as sinful as he can be, or cannot resist sin at all, (Gn. 4:7) and do good objectively things, and even be "almost persuaded" or turn away from the Lord once convinced. (Heb. 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 5:1-4) And unregenerate souls even have light of the true God, and thus by nature can do things contained in the law, (Rm. 2:14) but when the lost "knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." (Romans 1:21)
Are you suggesting that the holy spirit will be present in Hell convicting men and women
First, Whither shall I go from thy spirit? (Psalms 139:7) The Lord will "convince all that are ungodly...of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him" (Jude 15) at His return, and can certainly convict souls in Hell and at the final judgment of their guilt, but which does not mean they realize the supernatural grace of Godly sorrow and faith.
COMPLETELY given over to sin of their sins? How can one be sorry in hell when there is NO influence of good whatsoever in Hell?
Again, where do you get the idea that there can be no positive affections in Hell? The rich man obviously cared for his brethren, and pleaded for Lazarus to warn them, to no avail. In addition, being completely given over to sin of their sins is progressive in this life, as Romans 1 tells us.
The ONLY reason a sinner on earth turns to God is because God compels them- these people will NEVER go to God o n their own-
Those in Hell, while humbled and realizing the warrant for repentance and pleading for comfort, and seeking to be with such as Abraham, will not be granted repentance unto life. Man can claim no credit as it is God who elects, draws, opens the heart, convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, and grants repentant faith, and works in the believer to do His will (Rm. 9:11; Jn. 6:44; 12:32; 16:9; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) so that they do what they otherwise could not and would not do. But man is rightly blamed for spurning God's grace, and will be judged accordingly.
Concerning the rich man- this very likely is a parable- the rich man would NOT have a tongue, or lips- there is no indication the body is restored to those who are unsaved
Wrong. As shown already on this thread, Lk. 16:19-33 is not a parable, and God can provide some manner of sensory equivalent body in the spiritual realm, just as he will in the resurrection, and Lk. 16 testifies the former.
In addition, parables used known physical realities (pearl, etc,) as corresponding to spiritual realities (the kingdom of God, etc.). But if the Lord was speaking in a parable about a man who died and was in torments, then for the first and only time He would be using science fiction, for according to annihilationists there is no postmortem ongoing conscious torment.Why would Jesus tell a parable that was false, misleading and contrary to the supposed reality that there is no conscious existence after death? It would be like Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a rock that a man threw in the ground and it grew up and became the greatest of camels. If you have Jesus basing a parable on something that was completely unconnected to any kind of reality, an explanation of what the camel and the rock supposedly represent would still be irrelevant and unresponsive to the question of why Jesus would use crazy, false and misleading fiction to illustrate something.
Cordially,
Scripture doesn’t agree with OSAS as stated below.
“2. Can a true Christian lose his salvation? The Bible argues he cannot: once saved, always saved.”
“no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand”
Absolutely no power can take a believer from God’s hand, but you can renounce you salvation. With that being said your salvation wasn’t taken you gave it away. In more human terms your citizenship cannot be taken from you, but you sure can renounce it.
John 8:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
2 John 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and ABIDETH not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that ABIDETH in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning SHALL remain in you, ye also shall CONTINUE in the Son, and in the Father.
2. It’s past-tense: “he has crossed”, he “has eternal life,” which by definition is eternal and cannot be lost.
I was saved past tense all that means is yesterday for tomorrow I could start my old life again and trust me I wouldn’t not be in Jesus nor him in me. Again it’s eternal if you continue in the repentant life that Jesus has called us to live.
3. In Christ = no condemnation
Absolutely true if you continue “IN CHRIST” as stated above.
The New Covenant requires two parties both have to uphold there part to stay in force. God will always uphold his part, but we must continue in our part also.
If you couldn’t lose you salvation then Satan would NOT tempt believers we would be a lost cause OSAS. Please don’t tell me that we would lose reward because a ghetto seat in Heaven will be better than the best seat in Hell!
Jesus was tempted also and by his own free will he resisted and by his own free will he went to the Cross. I think if you really study this Scripture you will notice that Jesus had free will to chose and if he had choice why would you think we don’t?
John 10:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Lucifer was saved and lost his Salvation, so how did that work?
Bottom line: You can lose your salvation if you surrender it, but it cannot be taken from you by any power or force.
In my understanding of the Scriptures, including every one you cited, if one were to "renounce" his salvation, it would only demonstrate that he had never actually had it. In my view, God would intervene before a true believer ever reached that point of renunciation, either by encouraging his (eventual, sooner or later) continuation in the faith, or if necessary by simply ending his sojourn in this life and welcoming him to His presence.
[[Wrong. As shown already on this thread, Lk. 16:19-33 is not a parable,]]
Sorry- but bodies have NOT been resurrected yet- for EITHER side- Yet this man had eyes, tongue, lips- hmmm-
[[Wrong. As shown already on this thread, Lk. 16:19-33 is not a parable,]]
I don’t know that that thread states as your posts are so long I’ll not have tiem to read it however- the proof that this IS a parable are many-
The Bodies of dead people are in their graVEs, NOT in some 1/2 way place of punishment (Job 17:13; John 5:28, 29). As Noted before, the rich man in the PARABLE was begging for water to be put on his tongue and lips.
The parable is about Abraham’s bossom, not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16)
Dead People are forbidden from speaking to either the l living or Those in Heaven (Isaiah 65: 17)
Saved people get rewards at Chrsit’s second coming , not before (Revelation 22:11, 12)
•Unsaved people are punished AFTER judgement, not before (Matthew 13:40-42).
The parable was nothing more than an allegorical story about God NOT favoring anyone- we all get what we deserve-
Note also that the man ‘prays to Abraham- calling him ‘father abraham’ - He STILL does not acknowledge GOD as Father Even in sheol-
This PARABLE was very Jewish in nature- because ‘pious Jews’ of that age, to Whom Jesus was speaking- though God was particularly fond of them because they were so wealthy- and they used their wealth as a bludgeoning tool to lord it over the poor- That is what this PARABLE is about- bot about a man going to hell with a body (when no one else does) and ‘becoming humbled and contrite’ As you claim it is about-
These pious Jews thought they were quite spiritual because they were so Rich- Jesus told them they were not- that the poor are the ones who shall inherit the kingdom of God
ALSO- in this PARABLE- Abraham ACCEPTED Reverence that ONLY God is due- in this PARABLE, He ACCEPTED being called the name of God- Father-
[[Which refutes what i said how??? The fact that something prevents escape to Abraham;s bosom indicates a desire to do so,]]
Oh really? Then people in heaven will have the desire to escape heaven and go to hell?
[[But it appears you simply dismiss what is reasonable in the light of Scripture in order to maintain what is not taught in Scripture. ]]
I’m not playing ping pong with you- it is not I ignoring anything- it is you- You want to talk about reasoning? Then please explain for everyone how there can be any good in a Godless place such as hell as you have claimed-
[[You just invalidated the Lord’s many attempts motivate souls to want to chose their eternity by warning of torment, and which means that that those who were saved by fear are invalidated.]]
You’re not even making sense any longer- My statement did no such thing-
[[Once again it is apparent that you are not seeing things i wrote, for the very verse in supplied next shows weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on.]]
It doesn’t show any oen thing- gnashing of teeth is most commonly used to describe extreme anger, rage and cursing- And since we KNOW Hell is devoid of love, and that there will no longer be ANY restrainer to restrain the hate that man naturally has for God, we KNOW people will be furious in hell
[[Which, along with the rich man’s plea for the repentance of his brethren. refuted your assertion that there nothing “about repentance or wanting to cross into Heaven.” ]]
Nor sir it WOULDN’T even IF the story were real, which it isn’t- The man in torment is NOT thinking aobut hteir salvation, nor about wanting to cross into heaven himself- He is simply thinking only about himself as will be evidenced by Gill’s biblical commentary
[[lest they also come into this place of torment; as hell is, and which these brethren of his, he left behind, were deserving of, and in danger of coming into; and his concern for them did not arise from any regard to Christ, and the enlargement of his interest; nor from any love to his testimony, the Gospel; nor from any real notion or desire of converting grace for his brethren; nor from true love to them; but from a selfish principle, lest his own torments should be aggravated by their coming: this, as it may regard the Jews in their affliction, and if the ten tribes should be meant by the five brethren, may design the very passionate concern the Jews had, and still have for them, who yet, to this day, hope for the return of them; see Manasseh ben Israel’s book, called, “Spes Israelis”. ]]
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/luke/16.htm
[[Those in Hell, while humbled and realizing the warrant for repentance and pleading for comfort, and seeking to be with such as Abraham, will not be granted repentance unto life.]]
You keep claiming they are ‘humbled’ and ‘contrite’ yet we see no evidence of any such attitudes-
[[Man can claim no credit as it is God who elects, draws, opens the heart, convicts of sin,]]
Bingo- Now you’re getting it- Man has NO desire to be with God- God is the One that MUST draw such a man- A man in hell has absolutely NO influence by God to draw close to God- Ever! The man in Hell is there in hell because He hates God and because He IGNORED the call of God while on earth
[[And unregenerate souls even have light of the true God, and thus by nature can do things contained in the law, (Rm. 2:14)]]
They have the holy spirit prompting them to accept God, AND restraining them from pure evil- When the restrainer is taken away in this life, all hell literally will break loose in those who are unsaved- Millions will willingly flock to the beast who previously would not have when the restrainer was around-
[[Besides your premise unleashed and unrestrained sin nature and rage against God being conjecture which is nowhere said, and only the opposite is said,]]
No the oppositie isn’t said- The bible states just what I said- that the restrainer is the only reason people even think of looking to God because He compels them to- ad when the restrainer is taken away In the end times, man’s natural sin nature will be fully unleashed with no restraints-
Right now, Godo and evil coexist- when God gets done after judgment, Good will be separated from evil- In heaven there will be NO evil, in Hell there will be NO good- God will not be there, nor the Holy spirit- and there will be NO reason why a man in the full bloom of Godlessness will desire to cross into heaven as you suggest-
[[Why would Jesus tell a parable that was false, misleading and contrary to the supposed reality that there is no conscious existence after death?]]
He would tell a parable to get the point across that those to whom he spoke, who put so much worth on their own pious positions and wealth, were WAY off base- there is nothing false about that concept-
Please see my previous post for many reasons why this was indeed a parable meant ot convey a message about greed, wealth, and uncaring attitudes- a parable that got the p oint across just fine-
A parable is nothing more than a story meant to convey principle or instructive lesson
It is an analogy- much like saying “The man is a rock- He is solid” Both convey the principle that you can trust the man- that he is steady and won’t waver- etc-
A parable is something that shows a “comparison, illustration, analogy” for the purpose of conveying a principle-
There was nothing confusing about the parable- the principle that greed and uncaring attitudes deserve hell, while being poor and lovng others deserves Heaven- We could just as easily state that even if this was a real story, that this concept of who ‘deserves’ anything is fiction and not true and contrary to God’s word- but that is NOT the point of this parable- The point is that When money and greed become your God, you choose hell, while the poor will seek out God because they understand God can meet their needs
Hebrews- a man can’t even renounce his own salvation- He can claim he did, but if he was saved, he is still saved-
All of the verses that seem to indicate one can lose their salvation are talking about unsaved people losing their chance to be saved- and NOT about a saved person losing their salvation- I have a lsit of verses that show definitively we can not lose our salvation- ever- it’s long- but all show that we can’t- whiel the verses that SEEM to show we can are ifnact almost without fail NOT talking to ChristiaNS, but to Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, etc or to apostates who blew their chance at salvation after getting very close to it but never accepting it
[[Ephesians 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”]]
(Another verse by the apostle telling the people to look back at their salvation assuring them that that act is what saved them)
John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
(There’s no “Now you have it, now you don’t, now you do again- He who believes on God and Christ is eternally saved- they now have everlasting life)
John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
(No matter what a man does after salvation- after coming to a point in theirl ife where they accept That Jesus is God, that He came to die and rise again, that the bible is true concerning Him- He is always saved- They shall NEVER perish)-
John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
(Free gift folks- Christ gives us this gift- we don’t earn it, or even work to keep it- He tells us over and over again it’s for eternity)
[[John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”
(Shall never thirst- IF we lose our salvation, as some believe, we would obviously thirst again- contradicting this verse)
John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
(another promise that He who goes to Christ shall never hunger again- there is nothing in this verse or the previous verse that indicates we have to keep ‘working out our salvation’ in order to keep being fed and given water-)
[[John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”]]
(We don’t have to worry about people not accepting Christ- They are chosen of God and WILL be saved- no one will lead them astray- Christ will not lose any of His sheep- whom the Father has already given Him)
John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Those preaching that we must ‘work out our salvation’ must ignore this verse)
Ephesians 4:30: “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
(Sealed unto Salvation until the day of redemption- another nail In the coffin of the ‘we can lose our salvation’ theology)
[[1 Peter 1:23: “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.”]]
(If we lose our salvation, then the word of God is corruptible- it is not eternal- )
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
(Unconditional- It is a gift- we do not work for gifts- we simply accept a gift)
Titus 3:5: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us
(Nope=- no ‘working out our salvation’ to be found in this verse)
Romans 4:5: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
(This is why Lot was called a righteous man even though he lived a life of disobedience to God- He was still saved- even though he continually sinned- lived in sin-)
1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.”
(Incorruptible, We, if it were possible to lose our salvation, would corrupt the whole act of Salvation- Thank God it is indeed incorruptible)
Philippians 1:6: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”
(A VERY important verse which puts the lie to the idea that we can lose our salvation- Christ begins the work, and Christ alone finishes the work- it’s a solid promise- nothing I n this verse says “unless of course we sin along he way=- then all bets are off”- Christ finishes the work- we will NEVER be lost again after we accept Him as Savior with nothing more than a mustard seed of faith)
Hebrews 10:38-39: “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
(Woops- scary looking verse that ‘looks like’ we can lose our salvation if we ‘fall away’ from the word and worship- however, this and all the other verses that ‘look like’ they mean that don’t infact mean that at all- This verse is talking about those who learn about God, but NEVER take the step of Salvation, and who rely on their own power and knowledge as their means of salvation rather than on Christ who saves eternally- We need to be VERY careful with verses like these- to understand the original text and context, and just as in this verse, we learn that it does NOT ifnact mean what it appears to mean when the original text is studied in context)
By the way, as you know you offered only a sampling of the verses available. One passage you omitted is particularly apt, convincing, and conclusive: Hebrews 6 in its entirety.
This thread could be interesting.
I stated in my previous post, it would be like Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a rock that a man threw in the ground and it grew to be the greatest of camels.
It's absurd. To use a more contemporary analogy, it would be like Jesus basing a story on a bizarre, oxymoronic concept like "gay marriage". Now we know that there really isn't any such thing as "gay marriage" no matter what five reprobate minds on the Supreme Court say, because it is a contradiction in terms. Likewise would conscious existence after death be if there really were no such thing.
I do not believe Jesus spoke absurdities that have no basis in reality and that would be contrary to sound doctrine.
Cordially,
Yes, my list isn’t exhaustive- for sure- but it’s enough I think to show that we have ternal security- I’m going to be creating naotherl ist which will show all the verses that SEEM to show we can lose our salvation aren’t infact talking about Christians losing salvation- and the verses that are talking to Christians are simply talking about losing fellowship- not salvation
This issue comes up a lot in these forums- and htere’s lots of confusion- The bible does SEEM to indicate Christains can lose salvation- but we know that God does not contradict Himself, and whenever there are two issues in his word that seem to contradict, we need to carefully examine the issues to see which one is correctly interpreted, and which issue has been misinterpreted— the ideas of losing salvation is just such an issue
Yes, just because a lost sinner dies, does not make them suddenly repentant. They are still the same evil person that they were on earth. Even in Hell, they continue to commit sins. My opinion, and just my opinion, is that they will grow more and more evil as the eons of eternity roll on. I do not think there is s bottom limit on how evil a lost sinner can become, throughout eternity, although, at the same time, I think it is not all that important either. 🔥😫
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Hebrews 6:17-20 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:
2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων
The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.
The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”
The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”
Not by works/imputed righteousness 2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
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