Please point out In the verse where he said he did not want heaven, while If you read what i said then you should have seen that that rich man's please for relief would easily can translate into a a desire for the comfort of Heaven, as does the gulf that forbids it.
The chasm statement is stating that even if one should want to- they can not- because there’s a chasm- that’s it-
Which refutes what i said how??? The fact that something prevents escape to Abraham;s bosom indicates a desire to do so, unless you think the Berlin wall was simply to keep the West out. Souls tyherein did not need to know a lot about the West in order to desire it in essence, and likewise those in Hades.
But it appears you simply dismiss what is reasonable in the light of Scripture in order to maintain what is not taught in Scripture.
Yep- He selfishly wanted God to suspend his punishment for some relief
Are you for real? You just invalidated the Lord's many attempts motivate souls to want to chose their eternity by warning of torment, and which means that that those who were saved by fear are invalidated. Fear of torment is a valid motivation, but it does not end there.
[[It is to such basic desire to escape wrath that the Lord appealed to in advising us to cut off whatever would send us to Hell. Therefore it can be said that the lost in Hell would want Heaven as much as a person who was motivated to repent due to the warnings alone of unquenchable fire. How much more the reality.]]
Oh my word- now we’re really reaching!
Now you are really being unreason-able or stubborn. To the mature believer Heaven represents far more than simply escape from just punishment and comfort, but to the lost it need not be in order for them to be saved, though repentance itself is implicit in believing.
[[Actually, weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on, which presupposes they desired it.]]
Sure, verse please? O
Once again it is apparent that you are not seeing things i wrote, for the very verse i supplied next shows weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on. Which, along with the rich man's plea for the repentance of his brethren. refuted your assertion that there nothing "about repentance or wanting to cross into Heaven."
The only ‘sadness’ they will have is because they thought God would forgive them despite them rejecting Him-
Sure, verse please or more reading into a text what is not indicated or said? Instead, the Lord did not say "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," when ye shall see that you will not be forgiven, but "when you see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28) They
[[Wrong, as God would be perfectly just in showing no mercy, and is under no obligation to do so, or to grant repentance even in this life]]
I guess you missed the whole point-
Wrong, as your premise was that God would be an unjust God if he shows no mercy when people finally ‘recognize the mistake they’ve made’.
[[Wrong, as their is no indication in God’s word that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God,]]
there is NO love in hell- NONE- Hell is NOT a place where love can thrive or even exist- There is NO God there, NO Holy spirit, and nothing but unrepentant hatred of God
So faced with the fact that the rich man showed love for his brethren, then like annihilationists who conclude there is no eternal torment since God is love, despite what the Word says, you reason that souls in Hell must be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God since there is no love in Hell, despite that Scripture shows the rich man's love for one's own (unless you want to deny that, and redefine love). Instead, what is reasonable is that the realization that you are culpable for the suffering of others, if so, and can do nothing to help them, only adds to the torment.
a place for people with an absence of love-
Again, nowhere is this taught in Scripture, and the reality is that there are plenty of souls who are lost today who love others, and can even engage in selfless sacrificial acts on their behalf. The problem is that their ultimate love for others things above God prevents them from receiving the Lord Jesus.
I’m sorry, I missed the part where he was ‘humble’ could you point htat out please?
I am not surprised you miss anything by now that refutes you, but a man in torments pleading for mercy ("Father Abraham, have mercy on me,") for just one drop of water, and entreating ( "I pray thee therefore, father,") that someone be sent to warn his brethren of this place of torments, is well evidencing a humbled state. Of course, since you can make this man a rebellious contentious dictator then I am sure you can redefine that as needed.
Ok- again- I missed where the verse indicates that- When one gnashes teeth, it’s generally in extreme anger
But we must go by what it says in context.
[[Wrong, and frankly absurd, as earnestly desiring mercy is not dictating and being contentious in continued disobedience ]]
Oh for crying out loud- now it has to be ‘continual’ in order to be considered sin? What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
Ahem, those are your words i am responding to: "that does not sound like humbled, non contentious- but rather continued disobedience." What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
[[Which is your error, that of assuming men souls in this realm like the rich man was will be like raging at God in the next out of perceived injustice.]]
Don’t put words in my mouth- I never said ANYTHING about ‘perceived injustice’- I have rather consistently said man is in a state of complete separation from God and their sin nature is now unleashed and unrestrained- and their rage will fester against God along with the rage of their master Satan whom they went to willingly-
Besides your premise unleashed and unrestrained sin nature and rage against God being conjecture which is nowhere said, and only the opposite is said, if these souls are not raging against God due to perceived injustice - which is what the devil originally told Eve she was a victim of - then you have men souls raging against God knowing they are getting the due reward for their sins. Interesting but unlikely. I assumed perceived injustice would be consistent with your assertion of sin nature raging against God, as such false charges are a manifestation of it. Sorry.
There will be NOTHING in them that will desire God- NOTHING- There is NOTHING in sinful man on this earth alive that desires God- NOTHING- it is only the work of the Holy Spirit that draws a sin loving self loving person of perdition to God
The latter is true, but being dead in sins does not mean one is as sinful as he can be, or cannot resist sin at all, (Gn. 4:7) and do good objectively things, and even be "almost persuaded" or turn away from the Lord once convinced. (Heb. 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 5:1-4) And unregenerate souls even have light of the true God, and thus by nature can do things contained in the law, (Rm. 2:14) but when the lost "knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." (Romans 1:21)
Are you suggesting that the holy spirit will be present in Hell convicting men and women
First, Whither shall I go from thy spirit? (Psalms 139:7) The Lord will "convince all that are ungodly...of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him" (Jude 15) at His return, and can certainly convict souls in Hell and at the final judgment of their guilt, but which does not mean they realize the supernatural grace of Godly sorrow and faith.
COMPLETELY given over to sin of their sins? How can one be sorry in hell when there is NO influence of good whatsoever in Hell?
Again, where do you get the idea that there can be no positive affections in Hell? The rich man obviously cared for his brethren, and pleaded for Lazarus to warn them, to no avail. In addition, being completely given over to sin of their sins is progressive in this life, as Romans 1 tells us.
The ONLY reason a sinner on earth turns to God is because God compels them- these people will NEVER go to God o n their own-
Those in Hell, while humbled and realizing the warrant for repentance and pleading for comfort, and seeking to be with such as Abraham, will not be granted repentance unto life. Man can claim no credit as it is God who elects, draws, opens the heart, convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, and grants repentant faith, and works in the believer to do His will (Rm. 9:11; Jn. 6:44; 12:32; 16:9; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) so that they do what they otherwise could not and would not do. But man is rightly blamed for spurning God's grace, and will be judged accordingly.
Concerning the rich man- this very likely is a parable- the rich man would NOT have a tongue, or lips- there is no indication the body is restored to those who are unsaved
Wrong. As shown already on this thread, Lk. 16:19-33 is not a parable, and God can provide some manner of sensory equivalent body in the spiritual realm, just as he will in the resurrection, and Lk. 16 testifies the former.
[[Wrong. As shown already on this thread, Lk. 16:19-33 is not a parable,]]
Sorry- but bodies have NOT been resurrected yet- for EITHER side- Yet this man had eyes, tongue, lips- hmmm-
[[Wrong. As shown already on this thread, Lk. 16:19-33 is not a parable,]]
I don’t know that that thread states as your posts are so long I’ll not have tiem to read it however- the proof that this IS a parable are many-
The Bodies of dead people are in their graVEs, NOT in some 1/2 way place of punishment (Job 17:13; John 5:28, 29). As Noted before, the rich man in the PARABLE was begging for water to be put on his tongue and lips.
The parable is about Abraham’s bossom, not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16)
Dead People are forbidden from speaking to either the l living or Those in Heaven (Isaiah 65: 17)
Saved people get rewards at Chrsit’s second coming , not before (Revelation 22:11, 12)
•Unsaved people are punished AFTER judgement, not before (Matthew 13:40-42).
The parable was nothing more than an allegorical story about God NOT favoring anyone- we all get what we deserve-
Note also that the man ‘prays to Abraham- calling him ‘father abraham’ - He STILL does not acknowledge GOD as Father Even in sheol-
This PARABLE was very Jewish in nature- because ‘pious Jews’ of that age, to Whom Jesus was speaking- though God was particularly fond of them because they were so wealthy- and they used their wealth as a bludgeoning tool to lord it over the poor- That is what this PARABLE is about- bot about a man going to hell with a body (when no one else does) and ‘becoming humbled and contrite’ As you claim it is about-
These pious Jews thought they were quite spiritual because they were so Rich- Jesus told them they were not- that the poor are the ones who shall inherit the kingdom of God
ALSO- in this PARABLE- Abraham ACCEPTED Reverence that ONLY God is due- in this PARABLE, He ACCEPTED being called the name of God- Father-
[[Which refutes what i said how??? The fact that something prevents escape to Abraham;s bosom indicates a desire to do so,]]
Oh really? Then people in heaven will have the desire to escape heaven and go to hell?
[[But it appears you simply dismiss what is reasonable in the light of Scripture in order to maintain what is not taught in Scripture. ]]
I’m not playing ping pong with you- it is not I ignoring anything- it is you- You want to talk about reasoning? Then please explain for everyone how there can be any good in a Godless place such as hell as you have claimed-
[[You just invalidated the Lord’s many attempts motivate souls to want to chose their eternity by warning of torment, and which means that that those who were saved by fear are invalidated.]]
You’re not even making sense any longer- My statement did no such thing-
[[Once again it is apparent that you are not seeing things i wrote, for the very verse in supplied next shows weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on.]]
It doesn’t show any oen thing- gnashing of teeth is most commonly used to describe extreme anger, rage and cursing- And since we KNOW Hell is devoid of love, and that there will no longer be ANY restrainer to restrain the hate that man naturally has for God, we KNOW people will be furious in hell
[[Which, along with the rich man’s plea for the repentance of his brethren. refuted your assertion that there nothing “about repentance or wanting to cross into Heaven.” ]]
Nor sir it WOULDN’T even IF the story were real, which it isn’t- The man in torment is NOT thinking aobut hteir salvation, nor about wanting to cross into heaven himself- He is simply thinking only about himself as will be evidenced by Gill’s biblical commentary
[[lest they also come into this place of torment; as hell is, and which these brethren of his, he left behind, were deserving of, and in danger of coming into; and his concern for them did not arise from any regard to Christ, and the enlargement of his interest; nor from any love to his testimony, the Gospel; nor from any real notion or desire of converting grace for his brethren; nor from true love to them; but from a selfish principle, lest his own torments should be aggravated by their coming: this, as it may regard the Jews in their affliction, and if the ten tribes should be meant by the five brethren, may design the very passionate concern the Jews had, and still have for them, who yet, to this day, hope for the return of them; see Manasseh ben Israel’s book, called, “Spes Israelis”. ]]
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/luke/16.htm
[[Those in Hell, while humbled and realizing the warrant for repentance and pleading for comfort, and seeking to be with such as Abraham, will not be granted repentance unto life.]]
You keep claiming they are ‘humbled’ and ‘contrite’ yet we see no evidence of any such attitudes-
[[Man can claim no credit as it is God who elects, draws, opens the heart, convicts of sin,]]
Bingo- Now you’re getting it- Man has NO desire to be with God- God is the One that MUST draw such a man- A man in hell has absolutely NO influence by God to draw close to God- Ever! The man in Hell is there in hell because He hates God and because He IGNORED the call of God while on earth
[[And unregenerate souls even have light of the true God, and thus by nature can do things contained in the law, (Rm. 2:14)]]
They have the holy spirit prompting them to accept God, AND restraining them from pure evil- When the restrainer is taken away in this life, all hell literally will break loose in those who are unsaved- Millions will willingly flock to the beast who previously would not have when the restrainer was around-
[[Besides your premise unleashed and unrestrained sin nature and rage against God being conjecture which is nowhere said, and only the opposite is said,]]
No the oppositie isn’t said- The bible states just what I said- that the restrainer is the only reason people even think of looking to God because He compels them to- ad when the restrainer is taken away In the end times, man’s natural sin nature will be fully unleashed with no restraints-
Right now, Godo and evil coexist- when God gets done after judgment, Good will be separated from evil- In heaven there will be NO evil, in Hell there will be NO good- God will not be there, nor the Holy spirit- and there will be NO reason why a man in the full bloom of Godlessness will desire to cross into heaven as you suggest-