LEAVE JOHN McLAME ALONE !!!!!
Posted on 07/20/2015 6:13:58 AM PDT by Hostage
Towards the end of the video where John McCain's betrayals are exposed By Vietnam Vets And POWs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hr37eE0nO8&feature=youtu.be
are found the remarks of former Congressman Dornan's which are accurate and highly plausible but are missing a vital part that deconstructs John McCain's character and the myth about his 'heroism'.
Here's the context with reference in italics to the Hanoi Hilton's POW Commanding Officer Admiral James Stockdale in his own words:
Admiral (then a USN Captain) Stockdale and all other POWs inside the Hanoi Hilton confirmed the only way to come home early was if Admiral Stockdale granted permission; there was no other way around it. There were very few early releasees. One was a Seaman Apprentice named Douglas Hegdahl III who had spent night and day memorizing the names of 256 aviators into a rhyme and jingle. He was ordered to be an early release because he had those names to pass on to his debriefer when he got home.
McCain was never ordered to early release although the enemy offered it to him. He refused because of the standing order given by his POW Commanding Officer James Stockdale. Many have construed this refusal as of his own volition. He did obey the order and the consequence of not obeying the order was well-described by Congressman Dornan.
From Admiral Stockdale's book p.254:
There was little concern in any American's mind about the possibility of the Vietnamese throwing anybody out to defame him; we now knew the Vietnamese well enough to be sure that any early releasee would have to buy his way out by groveling on his knees before the Communists, bad-mouthing America. I gave their new release program a name: FRP -- the "Fink Release Program," and that was the way it was to be known. I also issued an order that started on its way to the other cell blocks of Las Vegas and with subsequent movers to the camps elsewhere in the city and outside it: "No early release; we all go home together".
John McCain's betrayals Exposed By Vietnam Vets And POWs:
No but letting the myth continue that he refused early release on his own is. McCain is no different than John "F'n" Kerry in that aspect. He let a trumped up incident from his Viet Nam War service persist and then used it to get elected and to me that is just plain sad. Especially when there was no need to so.
Add in the fact that a good many of the guys that were there in the Hilton state for the record that McCain is not Mr. Clean when regarding his comportment in dealing with his captors and suddenly the word "hero" and McCain don't seem to fit together as well.
Then you start looking into his record as a Senator and he gets dirty fast. Word is he didn't get nailed in the Keating 5 incident because of his former POW status. So yeah color me skeptical of "hero" McCain especially when he calls people like me, who are tired of politclowns doing nothing about illegals rolling across our borders en masse daily, crazy.
“When I was young and inexperienced I thought of them as heroes but now understand the meaning of the word as the military sees it.”
No.
I spent 25 years in the military. I’ve met Medal of Honor winners. I’ve met ex-POWs. I know how the military views them. Without exception, everyone I knew in the military considered those who emerged from the Vietnam prison camps as heroes.
> “Without exception, everyone I knew in the military considered those who emerged from the Vietnam prison camps as heroes.”
Ok then, why was McCain not cited for heroism?
He’s right up there with the worst IMHO. If you disagree you are entitled to your opinion. I honestly can’t think of anything he has done to further the conservative cause He and Lindsey Graham have spent their careers blocking conservative causes as long as I can recall. I’m open for any major “Conservative” things he has accomplished.....example???
“Ok then, why was McCain not cited for heroism?”
The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the SILVER STAR MEDAL to
COMMANDER JOHN S. MC CAIN III
UNITED STATES NAVY
for service as set forth in the following
CITATION:
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity while interned as a Prisoner of War in North Vietnam from 27 October to 8 December 1967. His captors, completely ignoring international agreements, subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through his resistance to those brutalities, he contributed significantly toward the eventual abandonment of harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese, which was attracting international attention. By his determination, courage, resourcefulness, and devotion to duty, he reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of Naval Service and the United States Armed Forces.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Silver_Star_Medal_-_John_McCain
The whole bunch of you better get your eyes on the ball, this isn’t about McCain, this is about the left and the rinos stopping Trump. They want Jeb Bush so they can have President Hillary Clinton. They will go after anyone they see as a threat to Jeb vs Hillary. They got you guys fighting over McCain.
Trump will stick with the issues he isn’t going to fall for this.
Stop long enough to imagine Hillary Clinton as President, please.
That citation was not for heroism.
I was expecting that from you because you’re a failure.
Anyways it doesn’t matter any longer; McCain finally admitted just this morning that he’s not a hero.
You can argue with McCain’s own press statement:
John McCain responds to Donald Trump: ‘I’m not a hero’
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3314205/posts
“Ok then, why was McCain not cited for heroism?”
He was: http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=23680
for his full ‘rack’ see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Awards_and_decorations
The “V” device is for “Valor,” BTW. . .
One must differentiate between his and time as a POW, with his shameful “service” as a senator.
He is not the first to serve honorably and then enter congress and fall short: http://acepilots.com/vietnam/cunningham.html
There are specific citations for heroism.
He was not cited for heroism.
And again he finally admitted just this morning that he is no hero.
John McCain responds to Donald Trump: ‘I’m not a hero’
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3314205/posts
Lord knows Stockdale tried. Wow. He gave a lecture to us at the USCG in 1986 or so. Guy was amazing. Never should have said yes to running with Perot.
“That citation was not for heroism.”
Hmmm...
“For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity while interned as a Prisoner of War...”
You might want to check on the definition of hero. I don’t think it means what you think it means. Try the dictionary.
“I was expecting that from you because you’re a failure.”
Really? I’d wager I’ve seen more combat than you have. I enjoyed my career, spending 25 years in. Roughly 2500 hours fighter time. I was wearing bifocals during my last combat deployment, to Afghanistan.
And I’m enjoying my retirement. My two oldest kids have been in the military - USMC & US Army. Both went to Iraq. One also went to Afghanistan. Been married for 28+ years now. Youngest is about to start college.
If I’m a failure, then I’m glad I’ve failed. I wish more Americans could experience failures like mine. Not sure I’d want to be what you consider a success, though...
On this thread it was pointed out that those that serve heroically usually do not claim to be a hero, you know, “I served in a Company of heroes,” but yet when he says what many others that served heroically say (I am no hero), you twist that to support your feeling. I prefer to take Admiral Stiockdale at HIS word (link upthread. . .4:00min. ..well worth watching. . .have you seen?). Sounds heroic to me.
So, using your logic, all those that served and have not claimed to be a hero, we have to take them at their word, meaning they are not hero's.
“I was expecting that from you because you’re a failure.”
We had no idea you know Mr Rogers, either that or you engaged in a personal attack, and personal attacks are beneath FReepers (and I am sure the rules of this forum).
My gawd, shot, broken bones, bayoneted, tortured and maimed, beaten (Stockton's word), in a gawd-awful prison far from home and with only themselves for support, men break and if they don't they are lucky if they live.
From Admiral Stockdales words I see no indication McCain violated the Code or broke faith with his fellow prisoners. One can pray you would hold up at least as well under conditions half as horrible as McCain and all other POWs experienced.
Which brings up a question: What service were you in, what war did you fight in?
Look, we all get it. You have emotion invested in attacking McCain, almost all of us share that with you, but most of us are able to differentiate between his military service from his senate “service.”
Really, let me help you out:https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/258
“Stolen Valor Act of 2013 - Amends the federal criminal code to rewrite provisions relating to fraudulent claims about military service to subject to a fine, imprisonment for not more than one year, or both an individual who, with intent to obtain money, property, or other tangible benefit, fraudulently holds himself or herself out to be a recipient of:
a Congressional Medal of Honor,
a distinguished-service cross,
a Navy cross,
an Air Force cross,
a silver star,
a Purple Heart,
a Combat Infantryman’s Badge,
a Combat Action Badge,
a Combat Medical Badge,
a Combat Action Ribbon,
a Combat Action Medal, or
any replacement or duplicate medal for such medal as authorized by law.”
Note the Silver Star. A “V” device is for valor as defined by the indivivual service. Of course, I point that out for others because you know this, having served and all.
> “Really, let me help you out:https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/258";
That has nothing to do with citations of heroism.
I have his citations and I also have citations of heroism as well as the military committee processes for citations.
The word ‘heroism’ is not thrown around loosely by the US Military.
Valor is not identical to heroism.
I’ve got McCain’s citation for valor. And I have another POW’s citation for heroism.
I’m just waiting for you and the other dingbat to dig your holes a little deeper.
But you can first start by explaining why McCain finally admitted to not being a hero just this morning.
John McCain responds to Donald Trump: ‘I’m not a hero’
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3314205/posts
You see, the whole scam was a fraud by the media to build up McCain as a war hero rather than the documented case which is that he is a highly decorated veteran. The truth they, the media and the political establishment, will never reveal nor acknowledge even if it were to hit them directly.
But you can’t handle the truth.
Good Lord.
Name calling, personal attacks, irrational splitting rhetorical hairs (valor is not heroism. . .really?), ignoring facts and logic, etc. . .all from a guy that never served. . .*sigh*
Hopeless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI
Good bye.
“The word ‘heroism’ is not thrown around loosely by the US Military.
Valor is not identical to heroism.”
You are debating with a couple of guys who spent their adult lives in the military. I also grew up a military brat, at least prior to my Dad’s death in Vietnam in 1972. Plus two kids who were in the military, and a SIL on 90% disability after his injuries in Iraq. So I don’t need YOU to tell ME about how the military views former POWs.
Valor: “boldness or determination in facing great danger, especially in battle; heroic courage; bravery”
Hero: “a man distinguished by exceptional courage, nobility, fortitude, etc / a man who is idealized for possessing superior qualities in any field”
“But you can’t handle the truth.”
I can handle it fine. You seem to have problems with facts. I don’t like McCain. I donated money to his primary opponent in 2010 and voted against McCain in the general election. I really want him out!
THE SECRETARY OF THE NAVY
WASHINGTON D. C. 20350
The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the BRONZE STAR MEDAL to
COMMANDER JOHN S. MC CAIN III
UNITED STATES NAVY
for service as set forth in the following
CITATION:
For heroic achievement while serving as a Prisoner of War in North Vietnam during a period in 1968. Under constant pressure from North Vietnamese interrogators and guards, he experienced harassment, intimidation and ruthless treatment in their attempt to gain military information and cooperative participation for propaganda purposes. He heroically resisted the routine cruelties and never wavered in his devotion and loyalty to the United States. These actions served to inspire and improve the morale of his fellow prisoners in the camp. Displaying extraordinary courage, resourcefulness, and devotion to duty, he reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Naval Service and the United States Armed Forces.
The Combat Distinguishing Device is authorized.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bronze_Star_Medal_-_John_McCain
THE SECRETARY OF THE NAVY
WASHINGTON D. C. 20350
The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the DISTINGUISHED FLYING CROSS to
COMMANDER JOHN S. MC CAIN III
UNITED STATES NAVY
for service as set forth in the following
CITATION:
For heroism while participating in aerial flight 26 October 1967 in North Vietnam. While attacking the thermal power plant in Hanoi, Commander (then Lieutenant Commander) McCain, despite extremely heavy and accurate antiaircraft fire and more than fifteen surface-to-air missiles in the air, pursued the attack until his aircraft was hit by enemy antiaircraft fire. Although his aircraft was severely damaged, he continued his bomb delivery pass and released his bombs on the target. When his aircraft would not recover from the dive, Commander McCain was forced to eject over the target. By his exceptional courage, superb airmanship, and total devotion to duty, Commander McCain reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the United Suites Naval Service.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Distinguished_Flying_Cross_-_John_McCain
Good try but that’s not while he was a POW.
Distinguished Flying Crosses went to just about every pilot that flew combat sorties over North Vietnam.
The scam the press has created was not about his Distinguished Flying Cross. it was about his time in the Hanoi Hilton for which he received a Navy Commendation Medal and a Silver Star with V.
I have a citation for one POW who was cited for heroism while a POW in the HH. McCain never received such a citation.
Now let’s try to explain this one, again:
John McCain responds to Donald Trump: ‘I’m not a hero’
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3314205/posts
I never knew that Admiral Stockdale ordered the POW’s to refuse a release and McNut never mentioned it. I hope and pray he gets “primaried out”. Maybe I should sent the link of that youtube to whomever challenges him? Actually, I will do that.
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