Germanwings A320 crash: Plane fell for 18 minutes (not 8)

The Scotsman ^ | March 25, 2015

[maggief]

NEW evidence has emerged that the Germanwings Airbus A320 that crashed in southern France yesterday dived for 18 minutes, and not eight as previously thought.

France’s Transport Minister Segolene Royal said this morning that the crew had stopped responding to radio messages at 10.30am, with the plane flying over the Mediterranean sea.

The aircraft crashed into the side of a mountain in the French Alps at 10.48am, suggesting that the plane had descended from 28,000ft to 2,000ft without signalling an emergency.

Ms Royal added that events in the cockpit in the 60 seconds between 10.30am and 10.31am were ‘crucial’ and could shed light on what caused the disaster.

[ImJustAnotherOkie]

At 400 mph the pilot could keep.the nose up

[nikos1121]

Watched it. What do you make of that? I mean there’s nothing left of it.

[maggief]

https://twitter.com/DavidLearmount/with_replies

Operations & Safety Editor at Flightglobal.

David Learmount @DavidLearmount 4h4 hours ago

@simon_rp84 @ElaSchulte @DaveWallsworth Can you provide the correct figures please, Simon?

Simon Proud @simon_rp84 4h4 hours ago

@DavidLearmount @ElaSchulte @DaveWallsworth Gnd spd was btwn 410-490kts, vrt spd large variation (-5kfpm to -1kfpm). At cruise for 3 mins.

Simon Proud @simon_rp84 4h4 hours ago

@DavidLearmount @ElaSchulte @DaveWallsworth This is from our own data, but both Flightradar and Planefinder show similar.

[PLMerite]

“At 400 mph the pilot could keep.the nose up”

Not if the controls (and comms) had been knocked out. The aircraft had maint on the forward landing gear door. My idea is that this door failed and took out some of the electronics located in that part of the a/c and left the plane in a nose-down attitude.

[maggief]

The debris field baffles me.

http://www.wwnc.com/articles/national-news-104668/expert-on-germanwings-crash-this-one-13440688/#ixzz3VPGs4e1i

(NEWSER) – “German-operated A320s do not crash in the cruise. Not these days. This one is weird,” tweeted the safety editor of Flightglobal after the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525, and with the investigation of the crash that killed 150 still in the very early stages, other experts seem equally puzzled. One black box has been recovered from the pulverized wreckage in the French Alps. France’s interior minister says this was the cockpit voice recorder, which is damaged but still viable, and investigators will put it back together to “get to the bottom of this tragedy,” reports Reuters.

[Tzfat]

I think that is a likely scenario, or a bomb.

[Tzfat]

Yes. Very safe. I have flown all the major manufacturers. Airbus is the most popular worldwide for a reason.

[Toespi]

A flight expert on Fox just mentioned “angle of attack” sensors, which have failed before because they freeze up, citing an accident over the Mediterrean in 2008. It is a known problem and directives have been issued.

[DUMBGRUNT]

‘Tremendous’ Crew

The co-pilot, Alistair Atcheson, 39 years old, put on an oxygen mask and flew the plane as a steward, Nigel Ogden, who was also on the flight deck, grabbed the captain’s legs and clung to a chair. Another steward, Simon Rogers, rushed onto the flight deck, strapped himself into the pilot’s seat and relieved Mr. Ogden, who gashed his hand trying to save the captain.

Helped by other crew members, Mr. Rogers clung to the captain until the aircraft landed. Other crew members calmed passengers and told them to fasten their seatbelts.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/11/world/4-miles-over-britain-pilot-is-sucked-out-crew-holds-on-tight.html

[null and void]

Gee... you like to think that pilots would notice if the auto pilot flew the stupid thing into the ground?

If the autopilot is flying the thing into the ground on a smooth, uneventful path, AND the software is reporting level flight at constant altitude to the pilots, what would clue in the pilots that something is wrong?

[zipper]

The media gets it wrong so often -- was it 18 minutes or 8 minutes, 38,000 feet or 28,000 feet, did it crash at 2,000 feet or 6,000 feet?

It's way to early to know if it was a structural failure that led to depressurization, or a hijacking that led to crew incapacitation, or smoke in the cockpit that led to incapacitation, or even to know if they were conscious at impact.

But it's important to know that at 38,000 feet, in the event of a rapid depressurization, the time to get the oxygen mask on is very short before you become incapacitated. Meaning seconds.

It's not like holding your breath. The air in your lungs instantly thins out to the ambient pressure -- you can't hold it in. If you don't get the oxygen mask on and breathe 100 percent oxygen within a few seconds, you probably will pass out, or at least won't have the coordination and ability to think enough to accomplish the donning of the mask, then you will pass out.

That's why, per FAA rules (U.S.) above 25,000 feet if one of the pilots leaves his station in the cockpit then the other pilot must put on his oxygen mask. It helps assure someone will remain conscious in the event of a rapid depressurization.

Just a hunch but the steady altitude loss described by all the sources of information for this accident, and the fact that they didn't appear to take action to avoid the terrain as they descended, and the fact that there was no distress call, strongly suggest incapacitation of the crew.

Why they might have been incapacitated is open to a wide range of possibilities.

[Reeses]

A jammed elevator trim caused a somewhat similar crash: Alaska Airlines Flight 261

[null and void]

the crew had stopped responding to radio messages at 10.30am

So there was communications with the pilots.

Assuming the pilots heard the radio calls, of course. I'd like to think that the radio communications don't get washed through the computer system.

That would be silly, but engineers with a charter to build the first 100% computer controlled aircraft are apt to make everything computer controlled!

[zipper]

In my considered opinion the Airbus philosophy of aircraft design is inferior.

It’s not just me saying that, it’s Chesley Sullenberger, arguably the most famous A320 pilot in history.

[maggief]

More pics of debris field.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/11491952/Germanwings-A320-plane-crash-in-French-Alps-in-pictures.html?frame=3244958

[null and void]

You cannot program an Airbus to fly a descent profile and have the aircraft automatically initiate it. It always takes a pilot to execute a descent. Period.

Comforting if true.

I believe that you, as a highly skilled A320 pilot, firmly believe that.

I wonder if a highly skilled programer would always have the same belief.

[kjam22]

Lets see... I went from 38,000 feet to the ground. I’m below the clouds now instead of above them.... If I look out the window the ground sure seems closer..... Someone has me on radar somewhere and has probably called to ask why I’m not at 38000 feet? Is the altimeter a piece of software on an airbus? Of course if I’m asleep I’m clueless. OR if some terrorist has cut my throat there is not much I can do then either.

[kjam22]

Google says the altimeter on an A320 airbus is a good old fashioned dial.

[zipper]

Chesley Sullenberger’s CBS interview on AF447 crash (Airbus with sidestick):

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/faulty-data-misled-pilots-in-09-air-france-crash/

[southland]

If it ain’t Boeing I ain’t going