Posted on 03/05/2015 4:32:24 PM PST by SJackson
The guy has a point with the Cyrus bit. Cyrus gets very good press in the Bible. He is even called the annointed of the Lord. The messiah.
Isaiah 45:1
Ancient Persia probably treated the Jews OK as some of them including Mordecai did not leave when they were allowed to return to their homeland.
The fact that Haman sought to steal their wealth seems to indicate they were prosperous in Persia.
The Bible treats Xerxes better than history. I saw a movie in which Esther tried to convince him not to invade Greece but that is probably not historically accurate or at least they don’t really know.
>>>”That was before 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeini returned to Iran! It could be said of the past, but it’s certainly NOT true now!”<<<
You’re right.
Even so, no other Islamic (govt) country can claim to have an active representative from each of the officially recognized religions (Shia 12ers Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism) in their parliament, which is also very much allowed in its constitution.
It is also understandable that there are people, non-Iranians too, who are just as much of propagandists as Zarif regarding the Jews & Iran, historically to present day.
Though the Mullahs’ Regime in Iran should quit repeating its annihilation threats of Israel (where many Jews live, regardless of whether they are ‘Zionists’ or not). These threats clearly contradict Zarif’s claims, even if the word “historic” is mentioned. Furthermore, these threats are plain wrong & add fuel to fire.
I think Esther became acquainted with, as in Queen, Xerxes after he returned from Greece, so you’re right, the movie is probably wrong.
>>>”There were/was at least one Iranian diplomat who aided French Jews. And in a sense Iran was a refuge post 1941 if anyone could get there. But that’s because the Nazi supporting Shah, forgot his name, was replaced when the Brits occupied the country in mid late 1941.”<<<
His is Reza Shah, father of the last Shah who died in 1980.
The Iranian govt during WW2 was officially neutral. The Iranian govt started issuing Iranian passports to the Jews, which never mentioned religion. The Iranian govt, leveraging the concept of Aryan with the Nazis, and based on good diplomatic relations, asked the Nazis to leave the Iranian Jews alone, because they were “Iranians. The Nazis complied.
That meant many Jews were saved from being sent to the gallows, concentration camps or gas chambers. Point is the Iranian govt saved Jewish lives at that time best they could, without firing a single shot. Way I see it, kudos & much respect to them!
Cyrus motivation was to expand the Achaemenid Empire. It was all about power and conquest. Cyrus was a thug. In empire building, first you conquer, then you pacify. Cyrus, and any emperor for that matter, cannot afford unrest in already conquered lands while still expanding the empire. Cyrus could have cared less about the religion of anyone in Babylon, other than from the point that religious appeasement pacifies the conquered.
However, what this history is not relevant. The current problems between Muslims and Jews, and Christians for that matter, go back to the time of Muhammad. The problems will persist as long as there is Islam. In Islam, deception (changing history) is encouraged. The Bible only provides a brief glimpse into history. History needs to be looked at in its totality.
>>>”Cyrus was a thug.”<<<
That’s illuminating. The only other people who have called Cyrus a “thug” are members of the Mullahs’ regime in Iran.
>>>”Cyrus could have cared less about the religion of anyone in Babylon,”<<<
Correct. He didn’t care much about the religion of others. He didn’t like slavery; Babylonians were keeping the Jews captive as Slaves.
The father, he and his son were both Rezas, was pro Nazi. He changed Persia’s name to Iran, to honor their position as the homeland of Aryans. As I mentioned, there were Iranian diplomats who saved Jews, some honored at Yad Vashem, but I believe we’re talking post British occupation. Which is more than the Brits did in complying with their mandate to settle Jews in then Palestine, not Israel. I’ve not heard of Nazis leaving alone Jews with Iranian passports
>>>”The father, he and his son were both Rezas, was pro Nazi.”<<<
Not exactly. The father’s name is Reza Pahlavi. His son’s name is Mohammad reza Pahlavi (died 1980). The son of the latter, who is alive is also called Reza Pahlavi II.
>>>”He changed Persia’s name to Iran, to honor their position as the homeland of Aryans.”<<<
Nazi Germany had good diplomatic relations with Iran at that time. German engineers were also in Iran helping with infrastructure developments, which was part of Reza Shah’s efforts to modernize Iran. According to the British Embassy back then, there were no more than a 1000 Germans in Iran at that time, not in a military capacity.
The diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany may have been a catalyst in officially changing the name Persia to Iran. Though Iran, to Iranians, has always been Iran (not Persia), and Reza Shah was more a moderate nationalist, at most (not a Nazi and his son was certainly not a Nazi, nor had pro-Nazi sympathies.
Moreover, the British were not the only ones occupying Iran. The Soviets too were occupying Northern provinces, British the South. More for strategic reasons, not pro-Nazi sympathies of Reza Shah.
A problem with Iran of those days was the power struggle between the Brits and the Soviets. Each wanted a piece of Iran, and Iran a pawn caught between the two. The U.S. wasn’t a real player at the time, only became so AFTER WW2. Partly a reason for Reza Shah to look to the Germans for assistance with Iran’s modernization efforts. It’s a long, continuous history.
The help to the Iranian-Jews (not all Jews) by Iranian govt began BEFORE Brits & Soviets occupied Iran. But continued with the settlement of many Polish Jews and nationals in Iran thereafter.
I’ve seen links online in Persian language regarding the issuing of Iranian passports to Iranian-Jews in Europe. I’ll look for it shortly.
You have a point about saying he didn't like slavery. I can't say what his motivation was, e.g., he didn't like slavery because the nature of slavery or he didn't like slavery because at the moment it didn't aid him in expanding his empire. The thug comment was about a ruler that expanded an empire through conquest. Understand that his empire was the largest to that date.
The Jews have certainly venerated Cyrus. I don't dispute that. I am simply making three points. 1.) Empire builders have their intentions (power) come first. 2.) Muslims use deception, in this case using history to distract for current issues. 3.) Ancient history has nothing to do with the situation between Iran and Israel today.
>>>”I can’t say what his motivation was, e.g., he didn’t like slavery because the nature of slavery or he didn’t like slavery because at the moment it didn’t aid him in expanding his empire.”<<<
All you have to do is look for a translation of Cyrus’ “human rights declaration”. It clarifies much about his motivation regarding slavery.
>>>”The thug comment was about a ruler that expanded an empire through conquest.”<<<
No doubt. What exactly did Alexander the Macedonian do? And, the Greek Seleucid Empire, thereafter, was atrocious to the Jews.
>>>”Empire builders have their intentions (power) come first.”<<<
Of course. No less expected, especially in those days. It’s also about how they manage their Empire.
>>>”Muslims use deception, in this case using history to distract for current issues.”<<<
Cyrus was not a muslim.
>>>”Ancient history has nothing to do with the situation between Iran and Israel today.”<<<
True. See: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3264711/posts?page=30#30
This link I meant: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3264711/posts?page=23#23
Links related to my post #29, in English.
You said: >>>”As I mentioned, there were Iranian diplomats who saved Jews, some honored at Yad Vashem, but I believe we’re talking post British occupation.”<<<
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16190541
“But Sardari [an Iranian diplomat] used his influence and German contacts to gain exemptions from Nazi race laws for more than 2,000 Iranian Jews, and possibly others, arguing that they did not have blood ties to European Jewry.”
“He was also able to help many Iranians, including members of Jewish community, return to Tehran by issuing them with the new-style Iranian passports they needed to travel across Europe.”
Salient point in response to yours: “after British Occupation of Iran” — seems the treaty Iran signed with the Allies actually hindered Sardari’s efforts to help Iranian-Jews in Europe, and his efforts were BEFORE “British occupation” of Iran:
“When Britain and Russia invaded Iran in September 1941, Sardari’s humanitarian task become more perilous.”
“Iran signed a treaty with the Allies and Sardari was ordered by Tehran to return home as soon as possible.”
The BBC link/account is apparently an excerpt from a more recent book.
The following link is about Polish nationals (incl. Polish Jews) who managed to cross the border into Iran from Russia (USSR) - this was AFTER USSR & British occupation of Iran during WW2.
It does not specifically mention Jews there, but we know many Polish Jews were among prisoners Stalin too kept in the USSR back then.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Personal_Names/polish_name_dariusz.htm
To sway the people who voted for Zero.
yes they would believe Just About Anything wouldnt they...or perhaps I should say Haven’t They!
Sorry, but your opinions of Cyrus are not based on fact.
Sure, you can make an argument that empires have an incentive to avoid uprisings by not being overly oppressive. This was certainly the approach taken, most of the time, by the Achaemenids.
But they were unusually mild by imperial standards of the time. The Assyrians felt an incentive to discourage rebellion by terrorizing possible rebels, which they went about with great enthusiasm.
The Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian Empires both deported Jews to distant lands. The Persians, OTOH, not only didn’t deport more Jews, they allowed the exiles to return home. They had no need to do that. The displaced Jews were not likely to rebel.
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion, IMO, that Persian policies were at least in part based on altruism or humanitarianism. To a degree unusual in history. Certainly this is the point of view of the Bible writers, who speak much more highly of the Persians than of the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks or Romans.
As far as all these faiths living in perfect peace until Islam came along, that’s a myth.
The persecution of Zoroastrians, Jews and heretic Christians by the Romans and Byzantines is pretty well known. Less familiar is the fact that the Sassanid Persians probably equally persecuted Christians, Jews, Manichaens, Buddhists and others. This intermittent persecution ended only when they were overthrown by Islam.
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/rel-zoro3.htm
There is a meme out there that Cyrus and the Persians didn’t hold slaves. This is promoted by modern Iranian nationalists to make their ancestors look good, by modern standards.
It is of course nonsense, as all actual historians know. In fact, all Persians considered themselves the slaves of the King of Kings, and were proud of it. There were also a great many actual slaves in their empire, of the State, the King and individuals.
A very great deal of the antagonism between the Persians and Greeks was based on the refusal of the Greeks to accept becoming slaves of the King by submitting to his rule. This is blindingly obvious in Herodotus, Plutarch, etc. Herodotus has vivid description of the “netting” slave raids of the Persians. The army would join hands and march across an entire Greek island to make sure none of the inhabitants were able to escape them.
(Not that that the Greeks had anything against the institution of slavery, as such. They just objected to having it applied to them.)
That made my Friday!
But compared to what we are dealing with NOW with Islam, the examples in question will look small.
LOL A+ I kept it.
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