Posted on 01/19/2015 7:41:15 AM PST by ConservativeStatement
Well, what do we expect from a mentally ill person that mutilates himself?
Sounds like you completely buy into the myth!
Conversely, I think anyone who dares to criticize those who were near Rigby when he was butchered to death are crazy. There was nothing they could do to prevent or stop this attack. They would have died as well.
You’d be mucho surprised how NYers stand up for each other during crimes. I was once involved in a terrible scene and a storekeeper rushed to my defense with a baseball bat he kept hidden behind his counter. NYers are very concerned for one another (take 9/11, for example) although cowardly acts undoubtedly occur. As they do in any big city.
I don’t.
The press has distorted the story for years, BUT I am not convinced by the revisionism (such as the Crime to Remember with its patronising narration) that argues nobody did anything wrong that night, and acted as they should.
IMO there were people, even if far from 38 people, who could have saved that poor girl’s life. There were things that could have been done easily that saved her, and they weren’t. 38 people may not have been cowards that night, but some were. Even if its three or six, that’s three or six too many.
This isn’t to bash a city, a city btw I like a great deal, and wish to return to, its just criticism of people. I’d say the same if she’d been murdered in Glasgow.
p.s the 1974 case was Sandra Zahler.
I believe when the cops arrived, she was in the arms of one of her neighbors.
You have to understand the terrain of Queens and its various parking lots and alleys on a cold winter night. On very cold nights on these amazingly wide boulevards, almost no one is out. That is why her vicious killer (who, after all, is the responsible person here) was able to accomplish all of what he did to the poor woman. This was a made-up story to fit the agenda that middle class people were cold and heartless. In other words, typical left-wing ‘60s ideology that elected Lindsay and then proved to be his undoing.
I don’t blame the neighbors of poor Kitty and I don’t blame the poor pedestrians who had to witness the vicious murder of a hero.
Interesting article amongst the current revisionism:
‘The truth about Kitty Genovese
50 years after the infamous Queens murder, dangerous revisionism is rampant’
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/truth-kitty-genovese-article-1.1706942
Dangerous? Revisionism is part and parcel of history. Rethinking the past and all that. This is has been an interesting discussion because I’ve been going back reading about this horrible case and found out that the original Times article was written by the notorious Abe “I’m Writing as Bad as I Can” Rosenthal who ended up as the Times Editorial chief. A nasty man, a bad writer and thinker, who found a “hook” and, as usual, went whole hog with it.
I notice you didn’t respond to any of my thoughts on the terrain of the area - an area that I was born in actually. And nothing about Queens in winter - all the little details that turn received wisdom on its head.
This was one of the most vicious crimes committed by one of the most vicious murderers on earth. He got out again and murdered again. He should have been executed. Instead, some people in an apartment building got blamed.
Also, as far as another murder committed in the area about 10 years later (I either didn’t know this or forgot it) - what is the suggestion? That the same people lived in the building and yet again ignored screams for help or that the landlord only rented to soulless individuals?
1—I thought it was an excellent article which showed deep flaws and distortions/omissions in the ‘new’ narrative of the killing. It seems Noo Yawkers are desperate to find any narrative that softens their inaction and cowardice that night.
2—I didn’t respond, as I don’t know the area, I will take your word. BUT that still dosent for me argue against some large elements of what didn’t happen that night and should have. Line of sight etc dosent exculpate the 38.
3—I think you are a little vitriolic on Rosenthal. Your post reads like redirected anger. Perhaps NY’ers are angry at him because despite his hype, there is a large grain of truth in what he said. And you know it, but wont admit it.
4—Yes, the man was scum. But that again dosent for many people (me included) negate what the people did, didn’t do, and could have done that night.
Sorry, but the people in that apartment DESERVE criticism. In 1964 and in 2015 and forever. If not all 38, then some. Perhaps all of them on some level. Some lightly, some greatly.
Sorry if that angers you, but its an opinion many Americans and many around the world hold, have held and will always hold. With IMO some justification.
5—The 1974 case had many people in the building hear the poor victim being hit, heard her screaming for help, yet did NOTHING. Not one person went to her aid, or even to her door. NOT ONE person even phoned the police!, the people old the police afterwards that ‘it wasn’t their business’ and it was the caretaker’s job to phone the police......in many ways, the Zahler case is even more shocking on many levels than the more famous case 10 years before......
Well, your post just proves the what I said originally: you buy into the myth. Part and parcel, I might add. I thought you didn’t blame “Noo Yawkers.” Looks like you do!
Yeah, I’m down on Abe Rosenthal because as a Times reader I know how he operated. It also didn’t help that he fired a friend of mine at a dinner party I attended -in front of 20 guests yet. What a creep!
And no, I don’t know that he was right. The “we didn’t want to get involved” was only heard by one man - the idiot superintendent who did nothing. The 38 figure is insane and has been completely refuted. The woman died in the arms of a neighbor - did you know that? Did Lee Rigby die in the arms of a fellow pedestrian? I mean if you want to get nasty, I’ll accommodate.
Brits and Europeans who become expert in the Kitty Genovese saga do so because they are looking for evidence that America is somehow less pleasant than their own land. It’s a comforting fallacy. I can’t think of one American who even knows the name of Myra Hindley. Well, aside from me. But that’s only ‘cause she croaked while I was in London. We generally mind our own business.
No, I don’t, I have made it clear that I agree some of the story is myth. We agree more on this case than you think. Even if we still have clear differing points of view. You seem to have a problem with anyone who is even vaguely critical of the people that night.
‘The 38 figure is insane and has been completely refuted.’
Agreed. And agreed with since my first post.
‘The woman died in the arms of a neighbor - did you know that’
Yes. I have made it clear by my posts that I am well versed in the case. Given that I told you about Sandra Zehler, I think its also clear I know my American murders. And I do: crime is an interest of mine. American and British and others.
‘Brits and Europeans who become expert in the Kitty Genovese saga do so because they are looking for evidence that America is somehow less pleasant than their own land. It’s a comforting fallacy.’
Oh dear. That just silly paranoia, and you are better than that.
(BTW, I don’t need a 50 year old case to prove I live in a safer country, I only need crime figures. -—sarc)
‘I can’t think of one American who even knows the name of Myra Hindley. Well, aside from me. But that’s only ‘cause she croaked while I was in London. We generally mind our own business.’
I would characterise the lack of knowledge in less charitable terms, but lets not start WW3, LOL.
Without being arrogant, I probably know more about American murder and crime than most Americans (as I am bit of an anorak when I am interested in something), and would put my knowledge of American history against anyone.
American society and living in it is of course another matter.
You are a bit of a raincoat? or were you saying “wonk?”
There is a significant difference between acting like a girl in boy’s clothing or acting like a boy in girl’s clothing
AND
acting like a boy in boy clothing and acting like a girl in girl clothing.
Do you know who Michael Hoffman is?
Did you now that at least 2 people opened their window at 3am to chase the killer off? He ran off during this time; only to reappear and attack again. The rest were woken up from deep sleep to peer out the window - and saw nothing. The poor girl had limped around the corner. The main villain of the apartment dwellers was the asst. super who declined to call the police. (In those days, we had no 911 - your 999, I think.) People had to scramble for their telephone books, look up the number which is generally hard to find in the way our phone books are constructed. Some did call in to the police.
38 people - actually 49 originally - were interviewed; they were not witnesses just people who lived on both sides of the street. There were only two genuine witnesses who saw the stabbing. One thought it was a punch not a stab, I believe.
Given this situation, I do not believe the second murder you cite was any different. Did it not occur to you that once it came on the police blotter that a murder had occurred in the same location, that reporters would rush to the scene and recreate the scenario? That's what reporters do: they look for a hook. You live in a country that also has a tabloid culture so you should know this.
Also, since you admit you really know nothing about living in this country, you should know that in 1965, NYC was still a relatively safe city to live in. We still had Mayor Wagner. It's possible that people in the apartment didn't even think that a murder was occurring. (Some thought it was two drunks.) Ten years later, the city was at an all time low and people were much more aware of street crime.
My knowledge of ludicrous European interest in crime & poverty comes from my youth as a NYC tour guide - the German tourists used to demand a tour of the South Bronx rather than Greenwich Village. Over and over again. Too stupid to even realize that all tours were preplanned and we couldn't go into Brixton...er, the South Bronx.
You like to study American crime statistics - I like to read about English kings. Yeah, I guess we differ.
Yes, I am. Simply because I see the case differently from you dosent mean you have to insult my knowledge of the case. I am well read on the case, have read every book and article on it that I can, watched all documentaries, and as I said I am very well versed on American crime and murder, as well as US history and culture.
So, yes, I could go through the murder point by point.
I lived in the US from May 2004 to Aug 2005 actually, in Kissimmie, Florida, working for a British travel company. Some trips back to the US for a week at a time, but most of that 15m period was spent in the US. Managed to travel briefly to San Diego, Washington, Atlanta and NY on business. So I have some grasp of US life and culture first hand. Some.
Anorak in the UK can be a slang term for an obsessive. Someone who knows everything about a subject and constantly obsessively learns about said subject.
STOP THAT!.
Its silly..............and a bit suxpect I think.
Time for a cartoon.
Hope you knew to tip in restaurants.
I am big tipper anyway.
The Scots and British are not mean.
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