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To: OneWingedShark
What clandestine operations would we have if every individual working for them decided to be a Snowden?

Here's a better question: do we need those clandestine operations — namely the ones which bring a conflict of conscience to those who honor the Constitution?

Well... it's a good question, but only if the question rightly addresses what took place.  Did Snowden only release information regarding agents who were in positions where their was a conflict of conscience?  Your comeback could address the idea that anyone serving in a nation with an illegitimate POTOS would be in such a conflict.  I would submit that if all such people immediately stood down, it could cause massive problems.  A national exposure to immediate attack could come about.  Are we better off with foreign occupation, or our outposts overseas over-run, our Navy, Air Force, and Army unable to function?

To put the question in different terms: would you hold it against me if I said one big reason for me letting my enlistment terminate was because it was obvious that the Army had no intention of as-an-organization honoring the oath of enlistment/office? (To be specific, they had no intention of seeing that the Natural Born Citizen requirement was upheld — the Constitution places the President as Commander-in-Chief, but it also places restrictions on who can qualify to be President… logically, if one is barred from being President then he cannot be Commander-in-Chief. In that case, since in the military authority flows through the chain of command, there would be no authority at all unless it was pursuant obligations of the Constitution itself: that is, Art 4, Sec 4.)

No, as an individual I would respect your thoughts on it.  I do believe you sometimes have to do the best you can in a sticky situation tough.  Let me ask you this.  Do you think the nation's armed forces are better off if every person that is lucid enough to grasp this situation as you have, quits?  Doesn't that leave only the idiots behind?  Aren't those idiot more likely to simply follow through and do anything that is asked of them?

This is really an example of a two-edged sword here.

A good explanation of that is here.

And that’s the only question that needs to be asked if we indeed need these agencies.  This guy didn’t got to a Senator, a Congressman, the President, a Judge, a police agency of any sort.

And given the reactions of each of those entities to the NSA's domestic espionage it seems like that was a good call.  Do you honestly believe that he would have been safe in the country if he had gone to one of those?

Is he safe now?  Is the nation safer now?  Are our agents overseas safer?  Are we going to get the best intel we could considering the global dynamics today?

Not only did this guy undermine us, he undermined our allies as well.  How do you think that sits with their clandestine agencies?  Think they'll be as forthcoming with us as they were in the past?

He spilled it to our enemies.  This guy either did it with evil intent, or he is one of the most naive individuals ever to exist.

Sometimes you have to go live with your enemies in order to stay alive. (Re: David and the Philistines.)

Living with them is one thing.  Pulling out the family album and telling them where every member of your family lives, and at what time they'll be certain places probably isn't a good idea.

I appreciate the arguments made.  You raise valid points.  I'm just not sure where the nation goes if those points are acted on.


33 posted on 10/12/2014 12:07:17 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama and the Left are maggots feeding off the flesh of the United States.)
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To: DoughtyOne
Are we better off with foreign occupation, or our outposts overseas over-run, our Navy, Air Force, and Army unable to function?

Should we even be overseas?
I don't think there's compelling reason that we should be involved — short actual, declared war. (As opposed to police-actions and fake wars.)

The only exception I can think of is Japan — as our surrender-terms forbade them from having a [real] Army/Navy/military we are morally obligated to defend them.

Do you think the nation's armed forces are better off if every person that is lucid enough to grasp this situation as you have, quits?

The only reason I quit was because as an E4 I had zero power to change things, and if I tried I would not be supported by my superiors, but crushed by them.
I would much rather have been able to stand on principle against trashing the Constitution, or standing aside and letting it be trashed.

Doesn't that leave only the idiots behind? Aren't those idiot more likely to simply follow through and do anything that is asked of them?

Well, I would like to think that if there were a significant portion that was lucid enough to grasp this situation this would be a non-issue; as it is, I simply don't know. Staying in when you can be compelled to act against your conscience isn't a comfortable feeling and certainly isn't conducive to being battle-ready.

Is he safe now? Is the nation safer now? Are our agents overseas safer? Are we going to get the best intel we could considering the global dynamics today?

He's safer than had he stayed here. I think the nation is not safer now, but I don't think it's less safe either; he merely revealed how unsafe it is in actuality — perhaps that will prompt us to change things (all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed). Perhaps.

I'm not sure having agents overseas is entirely a good thing — it might be better to rely more on overt and official presence (diplomats) than on secret agents. I would not be opposed to abolishing all civil intel agencies and having only military intel agencies. (The Constitution does not authorize security and intelligence agencies, but it does authorize an Army and Navy.)
As for global dynamics — I don't know. Certainly there's more to worry about here than in the vague out there.

I appreciate the arguments made. You raise valid points. I'm just not sure where the nation goes if those points are acted on.

Thank you.
Well, I do think things would be radically different if we actually followed the Constitution.

36 posted on 10/12/2014 12:53:19 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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