Mein Deutsch ist krank...
Posted on 06/08/2014 9:06:40 AM PDT by tom h
In an old issue of American Heritage, there was a passage stating that, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941, Hitler decided to declare war on the USA. In response, his generals recommended ceasing the offensive war against Russia, retreating to defensible lines, and taking the very reasonable military approach -- consolidating their very extensive gains in continental Europe, adding Greece and Spain to the mix, securing northern Africa, and turning the Mediterranean Sea into a "German Lake."
Hitler initially agreed to this very reasonable strategy. But within days the Soviets mounted their first winter offensive, on the outskirts of Moscow, and Hitler was so infuriated that he forgot his initial agreement and decided to continue his total war against Russia.
The rest, of course, is history. Russian bled Germany dry, the Allies invaded on D-Day 3.5 years later, and Germany lost.
Or, had they attacked Siberia AFTER Stalin moved the forces, they would have made significant gains in Russia.
EVERY time I read a WWII book, I find something that is as sure as the sun rising in the East (a prisoner escape) that “infuriates” pussy boy, making him do something terrible. Just finished a book on the Great Escape. Sure enough, pussy boy was so “infuriated” by escaping prisoners (did he realize the WORLD was at WAR because of him, and prisoners occasionally escape?) that he ordered the gestapo to murder 50 of the escapees. What a douche fag.
The devil has more puppets than Hitler. Some of these will choose to be pulled free of their puppet master.
Any serious student of WWII understands that if any of at least a hundred events or decisions by Axis leaders that could have EASILY gone the other way had in fact gone the other way, the Allies would not have won the war.
Hitler lost BARBAROSSA before the first shot was fired.
Even assuming that German tactical virtuosity can make up for the practical genius of the Russian T-34 platform, they began to run short of supplies in mid-July near Smolensk. The Cauldron Battles were wearing down men and equipment and using up machine parts and vast quantities of oil.
Critically, Hitler and Goering had mad the decision to keep producing consumer goods during the Wehrmacht’s greatest roll of the dice. They paid for it before Moscow.
Mein Deutsch ist krank...
This factor perhaps contributes to explaining why the gratuitous concentration camp cruelty. The devil has a particular rage at people of scriptural faiths (Jewish and Christian) which made it worse towards them too.
The countries under Nazi domination were in the grip of a mad man energized by mad demons (not as though there was any other kind of demon).
WHAT HAPPENED!
WHEN THAT MAN IS DEAD AND GONE
Satan, Satan, thought up a plan
Dressed as a man
Walking the earth and since he began
The world is hell for you and me
But what a heaven it will be
When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone
When they lay him twelve feet deep
I’ll be there to laugh, not weep
When that man is dead and gone
What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
Satan’ll take him by the hand
To meet old Gerring, look what, man
When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone
Some fine day the news’ll flash
Satan with a small moustache
Is asleep beneath the lawn
When that man is dead and gone
What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
When a certain man is dead and gone
Und scheiss...
Ist das richting, Ich wonder?
There were many proponents to a defensive strategy in Russia within the High Command, most notably Guderian.
He advocated withdrawing behind, and fortifying a line along the Dnieper River, to Narva. This would have preserved the forces, and supply.
His “Mobile Reserve” strategy would have put the Armored Divisions in the East on rail cars, ready to move to wherever a threat presented itself, while the Mech Divisions would be the local reserve, holding any breakthrough until the heavier divisions arrived.
Hitler rejected it. There was just too much pressure to secure the oil in the Caucuses, and the nickel/iron/coal in the Russian Southwest (Rostov to Donetsk). Speer and the Industrialists pushed hard for this.
Had Guderian’s plan been followed, it may have preserved significant forces, because Stalingrad and Kursk wouldn’t have happened. The 1943 Italian campaign could have turned out very differently, had two more Air fleets, and several Mech/Armored divisions been available.
Could it have changed to eventual outcome of the war? Probably not, as resources were always the Achilles heel of Germany. But it could have kept the Finns in the game a lot longer, and extended the war until more nukes were ready.
Hitler would have been dead in another 12-18 months anyway, if reports of his health are to be believed. What would be the end result after that is anybody’s guess.
There's also a problem with the idea of a "defensible line" in Russia. The original grand strategy behind Barbarossa envisioned a defensive line stretching from Archangel in the Artic down to Azerbaijan in the Caucusus..the so-called "A-A" line. This assumed that the major Soviet cities..from Murmansk, to Leningrad, Moscow, down to Stalingrad..would be conquered. They envisioned large armored forces, backed by the Luftwaffe..patrolling the vast Russian interior. I've read a synopsis of the plan..it's fascinating to see the German mind at work..but it wasn't realistic.
Slightly off topic, but for those who enjoy alternative history, I stumbled across a fascinated novel.."Dominion" by C.J. Sansom. It's set in England in 1952, 10 years after Chamberlin agreed to an armistice with Hitler. The Fascists run the government, Oswald Mosley's a big deal...and Churchill's the leader of the rebellion. A good read..worth looking for.
Probably, IMO, the first, and actually the best alternative history was by CS Forester..best known for the Horatio Hornblower saga. He wrote several volumes of short stories exploring what if Hitler had succeeded in invading England
Conquering France will do that to you.
I think it was his dumbest move, other than invading the USSR when he did. He lost all opportunity to consolidate his gains and the chance to defeat the UK at the same time. If we’d gone after the Japs first, he would have had years to prep for dealing with us. He probably wouldn’t have had to.
Probably so - and by doing so, he lost the entire war before the first eastern front shot was fired. And I think it's pretty clear some in the German High Command knew it too. In his demonic arrogance, Hitler had no respect for the Russian army. He should have known that they could churn out zillions of those crude ugly lo tech T-34's and over whelm him with pure numbers.
“If Hitler had taken this advice, it is likely North Africa / El Alamein would have not happened the way they did. Patton and Monty would have been in N. Africa a long time.”
Africa would have likely fallen anyway, given that Italy/Germany didn’t have the resources to keep it properly supplied. Once the Allies started concentrating on the African supply routes, the fate of Africa to the Axis was sealed.
Churchill had a more realistic understanding of Stalin and communism. He went off on other initiatives especially concerning returning refugees to Russian control. Many of the ones we returned were shot on arrival or soon after. Churchill appreciated the threat Russia represented.
Actually, it was neither dumb nor rash. A gamble, yes, but not dumb.
Americans had already been shipping millions of tons of supplies to the UK under Lend Lease. By declaring war on the USA, Hitler’s sub captains could now send that materiel to the bottom of the sea. His U-boat captains had been begging for that approval for a year.
Hitler also calculated that, because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USA would focus 90% of its war on Japan and only a small fraction on Europe, beyond just the provision of supplies. In that calculation he was wrong. 90% of the US war effort was centered on Europe. The alliance among the English-speaking peoples was too strong. Roosevelt decided that saving England and Europe took priority over saving the peoples in the South Pacific, Southeast Asia, and China. About the only serious concern in the Pacific Theater was protecting Australia — which was not peopled by Asians but Caucasians.
Good comments, thanks for the insight..
The best alternative fiction was the movie, “It Happened Here”, made on a shoestring budget, it did a good job of looking at what a Nazi occupation of England would have been like.
Except the Nazis were completely overwhelming the Soviet Army as they had achieved complete surprise. With the population of Ukraine, in particular, getting behind the Nazis as a liberating force rather than an invading one (until the Nazis started doing their whole Nazi thing), they could’ve had a chance.
Not sure what the logistics situation would’ve looked like if Nazis hadn’t relied on Soviet rail or had been free of the Ukrainian sabotage in the rear. There’s also the question of what the war would have looked like if Hitler had ceded Stalingrad and focused on more important strategic matters.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.