Posted on 04/21/2014 3:55:23 PM PDT by TigerTown
Link only included due to copyright restrictions:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/21/pope-saint-johnpaulii-easter-sex-abuse-column/7980347/
The KJV is beautiful.
So you agree with me praying to false gods isn’t a Christian thing to do.
good...we are on the same page.
And mostly accurate, up to that time. It is my preferred Bible.
Today’s Bibles are nothing but interpretations of the KJV, and that is because Man has tried to “make it easier to read and understand.”
Not hardly! The KJV RULES!
:)
Did you see me state that I believed in praying to idols? Did you also see me state that I was a sucker for any “miracle” that came along?
I believe in miracles. But I believe they come only from One Source. Never EVER underestimate my intentions. Jesus is Lord. He is Risen. He Lives.
I don’t believe that Saints are false Gods. .
“Keep it to KJV or NIV to keep the same level playing field.”
Ha, why NIV? The Not Inspired Version...
There are many other ‘legitimate’ translations to choose from...not the least of which is a Catholic translation...the Jerusalem Bible. It is accurate, and though I am NOT a Catholic, it is one of my favorite translations.
I knew this thread would be good!
That article reflects very well the end of the age we are at. It will get worse before it gets better...you may well need to decide if your Lord Jesus is worth dying for or succumb to the evil raging throughout the world.
I hope to have the courage to stand with God.
God Bless you! I have been 16 years...I indeed had divine intervention! I do disaster relief work with the American Baptist Men and I can tell you that miracles are common...they are not rare or unusual. God’s grace interacts in our lives everyday if we accept Him.
After seeing some of the discussion, time to weigh in as one who attended a Catholic seminary...
The model is of a heavenly court. You CAN go direct to the King and get the healing you ask for, but that is only a two-way channel of relation. The King wants more from us than that. It is a higher good that we ask others to pray for us and to pray for others than to take everything directly to the King all the time and leave our neighbors out of it.
The point of the miracle is that it shows the putative saint is in heaven and next to God, and therefore able to intercede on the behalf of the petitioner and relay the prayer to God, like a court messenger. All the prayers go to the King, who is the only one with the power to grant the request.
If you are looking for “proof” of a miracle, then what criteria would you use? The only thing we have so far is that it usually happens in a relatively short period of time and is “unexplainable” to science, not necessarily an acual violation of the laws of chemistry and physics. Extreme unprobablility is enough, becuase the point is to foster faith that the King listens to the cries of His people.
Philosopher David Hume also though miracles never happened, because it was always more likely the reporter of the miracle lied than for something unlikely happen in nature. Such a dark world in which he lived! If it could be proved, then faith would not be necessary. Uncertainty about the situation is critical to a miracle. There must be a possibilty for doubt, otherwise you would “know”, and not “believe”. Faith here is defined the way it is in Hebrews 11:1 - An assurance of things not seen.
I could go on for hours, but there are other threads to see. Laters.
I hope to have the courage to stand with God.
(((
Same here. May He strengthen and sanctify us.
God bless you for trying to explain, but it is pretty much hopeless, I have found, to reason with those who just hate the Catholic Faith with astounding fury.
“The point of the miracle is that it shows the putative saint is in heaven and next to God, and therefore able to intercede on the behalf of the petitioner and relay the prayer to God, like a court messenger. All the prayers go to the King, who is the only one with the power to grant the request.”
This sounds good, but is unBiblical.
Saints are commanded to BOLDLY go before the throne of grace. It is the highest honor a saint has - and by saint, I am using the Biblical name God calls all believers in Christ. No saint is closer to God. Every saint - including the newest believer who earlier today entrusted herself to Christ for salvation - is joined to Christ as part of the body.
As to the rest of what you wrote, please prove with facts and evidence that:
1. The departed saint who was prayed to heard the prayer
2. The departed saint who was prayed to actually prayed (or in your terms, “relayed”)
3. The “miracle” was because of this supposed prayer and that God did no use another source.
Well Catholic version has other chapters that most do not.
But I just threw in NIV as an alternative. I’m trying to keep from jumping from version to version. I have no preference to NIV other than a lot of people use it.
Ok you must have got caught in the crossfire...sorry I thought I was replying to someone who supported the idea of saints and praying to them.
Ok so you believe saints are true gods? Interesting. I don't think many support that and it's definitely not in any version of the Bible I've read. But if you believe that...that's cool. It's your choice.
The crux of your three questions is so that you would no longer have doubt. Sorry. That is not how it works. You must have a possibility to doubt.
You are free to not believe. It is not my job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. I am only commanded to make a reasonable case, i.e. witness, and the rest is up to you. If you wait for evidence, then you will not see it until the afterlife....
And then it will be too late.
Oh, and the definition of a saint I am using is all those in heaven (Church Triumphant), not all believers on earth (Church Militant). You are free to change the definition , but then we are talking about different things, and your argument will have no force. Call it un-Bibilical if you want. It was not meant to be “Biblical”. I am doing theology here, not Biblical studies.
If you were in heaven, would you be happier being an inert object, or would you be happier if you were able to love and pray for people on earth?
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