Opinion: What the West owes Ukraine

CNN ^ | February 25, 2014 | Timothy Snyder

[No One Special]

A true revolution doesn't come every day. The word "revolution" appears all around us, in commercial advertisements and political propaganda, until it seems to have lost all meaning.

The most minor tumult, the smallest change, and immediately we pronounce the word. And so when the real thing arrives, with tyranny and blood, with masses striving for freedom, with an ancient regime destroyed and a new one born, we might just fail to see its significance.

The spark that began the revolution was something called Europe: a trade agreement with the European Union that many Ukrainians saw as a chance to enter a world of free trade rather than government syndicates, and the rule of law rather than overwhelming corruption. When President Viktor Yanukovych, after months of promised, rejected the deal in November, Ukrainians protested.

The students were the first to reach the "Maidan," the main square of Kiev. They are the ones who already considered themselves Europeans, and took a European future for granted. After the riot police were sent to beat them, they were joined by the "Afghans," the veterans of the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Then came the businessmen, the professionals, the people who had hoped to make an honest living, but found themselves thwarted by unpredictable taxes and corruption. In December, hundreds of thousands of people, from all parts of the country and all walks of life, were on the streets.

Then Russian President Vladimir Putin appeared with a proposal. Why not take 15 billion euros from Russia instead of playing around with Europe? Although the Russian side promised that the loan was without conditions, Russian leaders then explained that disbursements could only follow when political stability had been established.

In January, President Yanukovych formally did away with basic freedoms. A package of legislation introduced by a...

[Grzegorz 246]

“The U.S. owes nothing to Ukraine.”

That's true, the thing is that Russia really lost the cold war, they didn't give it up voluntarily, they really lost and are getting ready for 2.0. They still have thousands of nukes, they have a lot of oil & gas money, they are upgrading their army at rapid speed, what they are missing is large population, that's why they are trying to get back ex-Soviet republics. They already have Belarus, Kazakhstan and Armenia add to that 46 million Ukrainians and the cold war 2.0 is on even If Obama tattoo “reset with Russia” on his forehead and then we will see a lot of nasty stuff, for example proxy wars (like Korea and Vietnam) going on across the world for next decades, so helping Ukraine is much cheaper solution. Of course it should be made clear that any cash pipeline will be shut down immediately if the government keep stealing public funds.

[Grzegorz 246]

“How about Gay “Rights”?”

Many EU member states are much less pro-homo than America is. In places like Holland, for some reason people just are pro-homo, they would be like that with or without EU.

[meadsjn]

The Ukraine has a tremendous wealth of natural resources, mining and manufacturing industries, and agricultural industries.

They owe it to themselves to be self-sufficient. The rest of the world needs to mind their own business.

[Grzegorz 246]

“The best path for the people of Ukraine is independence.”

Yes but at the moment Russia has huge influence over Ukraine, closer ties (no full membership, it is totally unrealistic in short and medium term) with EU would counterbalance that and actually make them more independent. “Ukraine should stay independent/they should stay away from homo EU” is the line of Putinists and in practice it means “Ukraine should stay under Russian boot”.

[ZULU]

Yes, but the EU appears gto be promoting this kind of social agenda, no? Where in Europe are they not wedded to this pro-homosexual agenda?

[MeanWestTexan]

” see. So all subsequent generations are, by association of ethnicity, guilty of the crimes of that generation? Well, I hope you hate all Germans equally as well. That will sure help humanity.”

Oh, give me a break.

The Ukrainian “protestors” are holding up the old fascists flags and doing Nazi salutes.

Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” — purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”

Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.

Copying the Nazis linking the Commies with Jewish people, the movement leaders release a message to the “Jewish Elders and Bankers” to talk to the former president and get him to step down since “they are the only people he listens to.”

In short, these guys aren’t internet Nazis. They’re the real thing.

There is no more a “good side” to this than there is a “good side” to the Syrian mess.

If you think there is a “good side,” you’re either a commie, a Nazi, or stupid.

Which are you?

[Jim Noble]

Ah, you are disappointed.

What do YOU propose “the West” should do when Russian tanks roll into Kiev? And what do you mean by “the West”, anyway?

There are three military forces of consequence in Western Europe.

One - Germany. Nuff said. Germans won’t head East for five hundred years.

Two - The UK. Disarming as fast as possible. No logistical capability.

Three - Barack Obama’s military.

My advice to the Ukranians is to make nice with Russia and pray. The alternative, for them, is really bad.

[Jim Noble]

So, there is no position to be taken between doing nothing and war?

Sure, there are many options, all of which can be summarized as pansy-ass pissing and moaning.

Either Putin will invade, or he won't (this is unknown to all of us right now).

If he is determined to invade, bravado from the lips of John Kerry and Susan Power make that outcome MORE likely, not less. If he wants to stay out, we need to do nothing.

Despite all the Western fantasies which have sprouted like weeds since 1945, the only possible outcomes of war are winning and losing. Putin holds all the cards of a military nature in this situation, AND he has complete freedom of action.

Nothing we do or say will change that - no matter how many gay hosts NBC has on their "news" programs, no matter how may "human rights" bloviators write position papers.

If we stay the hell away from it, Ukraine and Russia have a chance to re-equilibrate without a lot of dead bodies.

[Jewbacca]

“Chief Rabbi of Ukraine Urged Jews to Flee Kiev After Attack on Students”

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/02/21/chief-rabbi-of-ukraine-urges-jews-to-flee-kiev-after-attack-on-students/

FTA:

“One of Ukraine’s Chief Rabbis, Moshe Reuven Asman, urged Jews to leave capital city Kiev following a reported anti-Semitic attack on two Chabad yeshiva students in the city last month, Israeli daily Ma’ariv reported.

“I told my community to get out of the city and if possible out of the state…there are many warnings about planned attacks against Jewish institutions,” Asman said, adding, “We have been told by the Israeli Embassy to not go outside.”

Many members of Kiev’s Jewish community live within walking distance of the main square in the city that has recently become the focus of anti-government riots, according to Ma’ariv.”

++++++++++++++++

Yeah, these guys are peaceful, loving, wonderful and have no hatred of Jewish people.

The fact that they are attacking Jewish people is just coincidental and has nothing to do with the Waffen SS flags they are flying.

[Belteshazzar]

OK, so you are going to school me in Eastern European anti-semitism? Do you think I don’t know that it has been a huge problem for centuries? Do you think I don’t know that it is still a problem, with Ukraine, Belorus, Russia, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, etc.? Do you think I haven’t been there, seen it and heard it, and many times? People are so twisted - all people! - that they find it convenient to blame all the bad consequences they see around them on a particular set of people, always, of course, excusing themselves from culpability. This is part of the human condition - it used to called sin, before we all got so sophisticated - that so besets us all.

Of course, none of the phrases you put within quotations were from me. Those are only things you would like to put in my mouth, so you can bravely slay the straw man you have constructed.

I simply find your argument to be of a piece with the very thing you condemn. But I will not accuse you of being “a commie, a Nazi, or stupid,” as you did me. If you choose to be blind to human nature as it is, that is your affair. If you choose to remain on the side of cynicism and fatalism, again that is your choice.

Oh, do I know some Ukrainians who are as warped as you think? Yes, sadly, I do. But I know quite a few more Ukrainians who are decidedly not what you seem in the fever swamps of your mind to think of all of them.

OK, now you can readjust your filtered glasses and go on seeing the world as you desire to do so, assigning evil to those you choose.

[Belteshazzar]

Well, Jim, having read your two missives, I am not sure who you are arguing against, only that it isn’t me, since I didn’t say anything like anything you listed. Have a nice day.

[Belteshazzar]

I simply refer you to post 50.

I know what you are talking about. I also know that it doesn’t apply to all.

[Count of Monte Fisto]

The insolvency of Greece, Spain, Cyprus etc. are not the fault of the EU.

See my tag line. The new government is selling the Ukrainian people into IMF and World Bank debt slavery.

[Jewbacca]

“I know what you are talking about. I also know that it doesn’t apply to all.”

Not “all,” but certainly the leadership and a noisy plurality share the extreme nationalist positions.

Most revolutions end badly, and this one seems almost certain follow the normal path.

[MeanWestTexan]

"Of course, none of the phrases you put within quotations were from me."

Of course they weren't from you.

As noted in my post, gems like "Ukraine for the Ukrainians" are the political slogans of Svoboda, the largest political party behind the "revolution."

Since you are an expert in all thing Ukrainian, you surely know that Svoboda is the Social-National Party of Ukraine, named after that National Socialist Party of Germany (aka NAZIS).

And Svoboda is so original they have their very own flag:



And since you are an expert in all thing Ukrainian, you surely recognize the "Wolfsangel," the battle flag of the Ukrainian Waffen SS.

So, yes, I do not favor the rioters, even though I am not a fan of the government, either.

These people are literally Nazis, and I really don't care if they get killed.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Ukraine's Unfinished Revolution Sparks Hope for Jews — Not Fear - On February 22, the Israeli news outlet Maariv reported that Rabbi Moshe Reuven Azman, one of the country’s several chief rabbis, was calling on Kiev’s Jews to flee. “I told my congregation to leave the city center or the city altogether and if possible the country too,” Rabbi Azman was quoted as saying. “I don’t want to tempt fate,” he added, “but there are constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions.” According to Maariv, Azman, who is affiliated with the Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic movement, had closed the Jewish community’s schools but was still holding three daily prayers at his synagogue, just a mile away from the Maidan.

But in a February 25 interview with the Forward, Azman denied making the sweeping statement that Maariv attributed to him. His comments, he said, were taken out of context. The situation is dangerous for everyone, he explained.

[Tailgunner Joe]

1. At its zenith in the October 2012 elections Svoboda represented 10 percent of Ukrainians—not negligible by any means but less than the votes commanded by like parties in the Netherlands, Austria, and (yes) France.

2. Far from advancing and, as Putin’s propagandists in Europe repeat ad nauseam, benefitting from the radicalization of the movement, the opposite has occurred. The emergence of new leaders who have diluted the extreme right’s monopoly on radicalism has marginalized Svoboda, as shown by every poll, most recently the SOCIS poll of January 31, which, like the others, puts Svoboda at below five percent of the vote. - Ukraine’s Revolutionaries Are Not Fascists

[MeanWestTexan]

[Jewbacca]

I am not saying Svoboda is the majority.* The Nazis in Germany weren’t really a proper majority, either.

They were the angry, motivated, plurality that seized power.

Same thing looks to happen here, as happened in Libya, Egypt, and most every other revolution.

* It’s actually been eclipsed by a even farther-authoritarian/racist party, but that’s another post.

[Belteshazzar]

Sigh ... you just are not a very temperate individual.

Thank you for the additional schooling and additional insults.

Happy now?