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To: chesley

No offense, Chesley. Seriously.

Once I turned to this viewpoint I’ve been discussing it (sadly, arguing is a better word) with my brothers for about three years. The points you bring up are all there but not always what people think they are.

To touch on a couple, and only a couple, a fire can go on for a day, many days, or like the dump Jesus was referring to in one passage, continuously. But the garbage being thrown into it is, in fact, consumed. I.e. it may hurt for a sec, and then you’ve experienced the “second death”.

Regarding Lazarus and the Rich man, there is more there than most people know, and less in some ways that may be surprising. But it is not about eternity. Here is a very good rundown:

http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html

And here is a great analogy that may explain why some people hear the “turn or burn” message and reject it:

“Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. ‘Marry me,’ he says, ‘and I will give you a life like you’ve never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you’ve ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!’

“Now suppose the woman is very flattered by the proposal, but is uncertain about whether or not she is ready for such a commitment. Asking for a few more days to think it over, Mr. Right answers, ‘You are welcome to take more time, but it’s only fair that I warn you what will happen if you decline my generous offer. Your only option, other than spending paradise with me, is to be thrown into my underground dungeon, have your eyes gouged from their sockets, and be subjected to unimaginable pain every hour, on the hour, for the rest of your long, miserable life.’

“What do you suppose would be going through the young woman’s mind at a time like this? I imagine that would change the way she feels about the man considerably. She might have previously accepted Mr. Right’s proposal because of her love for him, but is there much chance of that now? Surely not. If she takes him seriously, she’ll undoubtedly marry him, but not as much for love as out of genuine terror at the alternative.

“Is this God’s way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn’t that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him “Savior” at all. How merciful can it be to create a never-ending torture pit for everyone and then save only a few from it?”

My God is just. It is clear that his justice prevents those that do not accept the Grace of Christ from entering into eternal life with Him, but the justice is complete in making their fleshly death a final condition via the second death, even if it means death by being thrown into the surface of the sun.

Before I post, It strikes me that I should comment on your mentioning the book of Revelation. It is one of my favorites. I use Revelation 7 to support my “mid-Trib” position on the rapture and I moved to KY in 2011 in the spirit of Revelation 18-4. But I understand the whole book is steeped in symbolism and reads almost like Nostrodamus. I would not use it as a source of proof for any “doctrine” based on the plain words it uses, since their meaning is rarely plain in Revelation.

Give her wings of a great eagle? Frogs came out of their mouths? The great harlot? Giant made from multiple metals and clay? These verses all have strong meaning but probably rarely mean in a literal sense what the dictionary definitions of the words mean. Same goes for the fate of the lost as described in Revelation. But even then, the mose supportive scripture there of eternal torture of humans refers specifically to those who take the mark of the beast in the end times. I have an open mind about that one because I have not met anyone yet that has taken the mark. When I do, I might understand why the bible discusses eternal torture regarding them. But until I meet one, I can’t say.


11 posted on 02/20/2014 6:33:37 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf
I read the link. Interesting, but I am not convinced. I'm not saying he is wrong, either. It's just that I think he is.

As for your analogy, It's ok as far as it goes. Except that it is always risky to reason from analogy. The validity of your conclusions depend on the correspondences in the analogy.

In this case, it's not that the woman is in a perfectly great place, and the man offers to marry her and give her good stuff, or torture her, but not let her remain in the state that she is already in.

No. The situation is that she is in a poor situation, and the man offers to save her from it.

Eternal damnation is the default position of all mankind. A way to be saved from it is offered, but can be rejected. God casts no one into Hell (which I am using in the sense of a place of eternal torment). They freely choose to go there.

As far as interpretations of Revelation, I certainly do not insist that my interpretation is the correct one. I believe that it is, but this is a subject on which I am willing to concede that the possibilities that it is something else are quite substantial.

However that may be, I believe in an eternal torment of some kind, whether it consists of fire which burns that does not consume for all eternity, or just the knowledge of separation from God, and what you are missing out on. I lean toward the former.

However, I can find no Biblical justification for, say, death as obliteration and total destruction of the consciousness.

42 posted on 02/20/2014 8:22:39 AM PST by chesley
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