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To: redleghunter
redleghunter: "So is it the Father or Son in Revelation 1:8? The modifier is in verse 7. Discussed again in verse 9."

In verse 6 Jesus has made us to be a kingdom to serve his God and Father.

Verse 7 describes Jesus "coming with the clouds", the reference being Daniel 7:13, where "one like a son of man" approached the "Ancient of Days" and was lead into His presence.

Next, in verse 8 the Lord God, "Alpha and Omega" speaks: clearly the Father Himself.

In verse 9, John himself speaks of the "word of God and the testimony of Jesus."
I understand those to be two separate beings.

This is presented in understandable form here.

FRiend, there are references and modifiers throughout those verses, so I "get" that somebody might wish to understand them differently.
But I don't see why a different understanding necessarily makes one a "God Damned Heretic".

2,646 posted on 01/01/2014 6:09:54 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

The One coming on the clouds is Jesus Christ. No where do we see The Father communicating with John in chapter 1. Thus the linkage of you mentioned in Daniel and we also see in Ezekiel.

Clearly more gymnastics are required to deny “the first and the last” shifts from Jesus Christ to The Father. We see in the following verses two more confirmations Jesus is the first and last, which corresponds again to Isaiah 44 where it is clear Yahweh is the subject.

Here is the context:

Revelation 1:5-18 KJV

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


2,658 posted on 01/01/2014 10:33:27 AM PST by redleghunter
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