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To: 4Zoltan
So McClure and Vale were in a land speculating deal in East Florida. This would have been a very big deal in 1810 when the US had annexed West Florida and was concerned about the British and French intentions in East Florida.

I think you may be underestimating how badly Thomas Jefferson wanted Florida. While researching this I came across countless written examples of Jefferson DESPERATE to get his hands on Florida. Florida was a Big F***'n Deal (to use the words of Joe Biden.)

Getting Florida was a big part of what the American Delegation to France was specifically tasked with. Though it was "officially" owned by Spain, everyone knew that the Spanish government would do whatever Napoleon said. He was the real owner of Florida.

Getting Florida was considered one of the most important aspects of their mission. Jefferson BADLY wanted Florida, and I have no doubt his urgency transferred to the subsequent Madison Administration.

It explains why in the newspaper article about McClure, it was reported that he was turned in to the French by Armstrong. It would also explain why Armstrong denied McClure's request for help.

Yes it does. It explains quite clearly why Madison might WANT McClure to remain indisposed. Of COURSE they weren't going to help him. He was trying to queer their deal.

In the 1807 letter Armstrong calls McClure a "naturalized American" so Armstrong knew what the law was and knew the McClure was a citizen.

I will point out that this is quite distinct from a "natural born" American, and serves as tacit evidence that people who know exactly what the term means, did not regard birth in the United States as sufficient to convey it.

In ordinary circumstances McClure would have been accepted without question, but because McClure was a danger to US Interests, they insisted on an absolutely technical point; That he is not a citizen unless South Carolina had a law which naturalized children born prior to the father's naturalization. When you are an official who wants to impede someone, you throw legal technicalities at them. That is the case here.

He clearly ignored that evidence in order to keep McClure in French hands.

He milked it for all it was worth. He had a technically correct legal argument. That the child was not an American unless he be regarded as the citizen of a state and naturalized under some state law. Many states had such laws and Armstrong was pleading ignorance of such a law being in effect in South Carolina.

Yes, it was underhanded and dirty but legally defensible.

The point remains. "Naturalized" is not "Natural Born." As it is conceded by all parties that McClure was BORN in the United States, it is obvious that PLACE is not the characteristic by which a "natural born citizen" acquires his status.

Madison tacitly agreed by allowing McClure to remain in custody. (where he wanted him anyway.)

This wasn't the only time that Armstrong had been accused of questionable activity. His aid David Bailie Warden wrote to Madison in 1811 to profess his innocence in a scheme to smuggle silk into the U.S.

Yup. I have that saved somewhere in my forest of links. Armstrong did not get along very well with the Diplomatic staff. They were constantly quarreling and impugning each others character. Armstrong was an @$$ and very likely an unethical one at that.

And I suspect that his imprisonment may have been more Armstrong's idea than Madison's. An attempt to eliminate the competition. Maybe you have additional information about this.

Yes, but Madison went along with it, and thereby it acquires official sanction from the Father of the Constitution. I have little doubt that McClure was apprehended under a pretext of not having American citizenship for the sole purpose of scuttling his attempts to interfere with the US efforts to acquire Florida. Likewise I think they regarded him as a British Agent, not withstanding the fact that he was born in the United States. He certainly BEHAVED like a British agent.

I have to thank you for finding some of that documentation. Previously I only had excerpts of that letter from Armstrong to Madison, (referred to in a 1959 essay on Armstrong) and no combination of words of which I could conceive was able to pry the whole thing out of the internet.

I KNEW that Armstrong must have informed Madison about McClure's skulduggery, and I knew that Madison must have been alarmed by it. McClure was threatening a very dear prize and I can't see Jefferson or Madison tolerating it.

Once more, it tends to support the notion that "Publius" was very likely Madison or one of his Agents, and regardless, represented the position that Madison wished expressed on the matter.

Like I said, this is a very fascinating story. History would have been dramatically affected had things worked out in McClure's favor.

807 posted on 09/06/2013 7:02:37 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Let's not forget Mr. John Rodman and another Florida connection.

From a footnote to letter from Jefferson to Rodman.

"John Rodman (1775–1847) was a merchant in New York City by 1801. He spent three years in France before returning to New York City by 1812 to practice law. Rodman served as a major of artillery during the war of 1812 and in 1814 published a translation of the commercial code of France. He was appointed the state’s district attorney for the city and county of New York in 1815 and served until 1817, when he resigned and spent another year in France. In 1821 James Monroe appointed Rodman customs collector for the port of Saint Augustine, Florida, and he held this position until 1842. In Florida, Rodman continued to practice law and also served as an alderman for Saint Augustine and a prosecuting attorney for Saint Johns County."

http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-04-02-0552

Rodman was also well acquainted with David Bailie Warden (Armstrong's secretary)

"Warden’s friend, John Rodman, wrote from New York: “I have read your book on Consular establishments … it is really a very valuable treatise and does you great credit …”." Rodman to Warden, 28 October 1814. Reel 2, Warden Paper, MdHS in David Bailie Warden and the Development of Consular Law.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1661020

808 posted on 09/06/2013 8:28:50 AM PDT by 4Zoltan
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