>>Its thought that way to deflect uncomfortable truths<<

No, it’s “thought that way” (that environment is more important to IQ than genetics) because that’s what the more research has shown.

In other words, ExDem Lady is correct. It is not only not an “uncomfortable truth”; it is just not the truth, period.

It’s probably comforting, however, to think that nothing can be changed because then one doesn’t have to worry about the devastation that black culture (as it has evolved in the U.S.) has wreaked on black children’s futures, or about how that culture might somehow be changed.

One thing I suspect we do agree on, however, is that the problem isn’t going to be solved by throwing more money at it. In fact, I’d argue that federal money is probably at the root of the decay of black families in this country.

In a nutshell, ExDem Lady is probably right when she states that black and white children reared in equal settings would end up with the same measured IQ’s. That’s what the more recent research implies. Those of you who think otherwise are either basing your opinions on decades-old research or on a preconceived notion. In either case, you’re probably wrong and should consider the implications of going through life believing what you currently believe on this matter.

It doesn’t mean you’re bad people in any way, but if you’re immune to considering the possibility that you’ve been wrong in consigning black children to a lower status due to innate intelligence differences, well, that misperception could cause a good person to go astray at times.

What the country really needs is a white population that universally understands that black children are underperforming primarily because of their personal circumstances, and not because they are innately stupid (bad word, I know, but that’s what many of you think), because if everyone understood that, then maybe something would finally be done about the situation.

Personally, I’d start by re-evaluating every federal dime that goes to black communities and restructure all programs so that their present perverse incentives are eliminated. Of course, to do that, you’d have to first fire the First Black President, since all he’s done is add to their plight by increasing those same programs.

No. If you “only considered” middle class “whites”, the difference would remain.

You just did.

Ping for later.

"A lot of that difference is a result of a culture that punishes anyone who tries to get ahead and rewards a victim mentality"

Some, but IQ is about 80% genetic.

The countries from where black slaves originated have 67-74 average IQs.

Now, all statistics are useless when it comes to a given individual. Obama is not stupid. Probably clearly above average, a solid 120. But he was not Ivy League material and certainly not Presidential material. Unfortunately, he's been given a trophy at every level and never done anything, so he mistakenly thinks he's smart.

You just did.

There is a *huge* difference between stating the fact of my intelligence and standing around bragging about how much smarter I am than anyone else. You will never find me claiming that my intellect makes me better than other people.

Suppose a study were published that said that Norwegians as a group have a much higher IQ than, say, New Zealanders. That study could be used as an excuse for a lot of mischief. But would good would come out of it?

Well, we could use that information to pass a law providing that those of us having a New Zealand heritage could not vote. :-)

‘Tis true, Elsie.

Looking back at my almost 66 years, I realize that I have not fulfilled the potential indicated by my test scores. Various factors have been involved: external circumstances ( family, “life”, a war), my occasional sloth, overestimating intellect and underestimating perseverance.

PhD: Piled Higher and Deeper

Neither party is correct about all the implications and causes of group behavior and IQ

However ignoring obvious shortcomings and clinging to platitudes has destroyed America

I know you mean well in your heart but your naivete is the problem really

People today basically think everyone who lived before 1970 was wrong about behavior with race and gender etc

And now everyone thinks overall its much better since they simply ignore disparity and feel a utopian world once created will have us all on the same median performance wise

Likewise said thought lives to diminish white cultural contributions historically and elevate others

I don’t buy any if this

Environment contributed but is nowhere near equal to DNA

But long term environment is a huge factor in creating genetic disparity....isolation in human progression likely biggest culprit

I am old enough to recall the era before all this and I hate to break it to you we are a mere shadow of what we once were

And platitudes like those you two believe have been a contribution

No one knows for sure but relatively speaking DNA determines who what we have to work with exponentially more than environment

There are some unwelcome studies out there about black middle class kids performance that got about the same reaction as those out there in gay parenting

>>People today basically think everyone who lived before 1970 was wrong about behavior with race...<<

Let me guess. You were fine with whites behavior toward blacks prior to the 1970’s from what you say, or at least that’s what you seem to imply. (Frankly, I hope not though.)

Anyway, enough said. Have a nice day.

Incidentally, I’m old enough to have learned Eanie meanie miney moe, when it wasn’t a tiger we caught, and you certainly know what I mean. Some of us just matured out of our earlier thoroughly-instilled prejudices. Others didn’t.

You're right. The problem is we had a set of Western values that enabled the development of a great nation, values like the dignity of the individual, honor, and self-reliance.

Certain enemies of freedom - bitter people who'd rather give up and turn everything over rather than fight on - employ the logical fallacy "poisoning the well", pointing to disgraces like segregation and racism as a basis to jettison everything - including the nobler values. In rejecting these nobler traits through guilt-by-association we cut off the proverbial branch on which our wealth and comfort rested.

People say, "God bless America", but is it not unreasonable to turn that around and insist that America first bless God by honoring His commands and the Judeo-Christian underpinnings that underwrote our greatness in the firstplace? Our system after all, as a great man once said, is fit only for a moral and ethical people. I target everyone here - myself included - not just the obvious enemies of freedom.

Thoughts?

Unfortunately, he's been given a trophy at every level and never done anything, so he mistakenly thinks he's smart.

But, did a Pakled ever get a Nobel Prize?

You were fine with whites behavior toward blacks prior to the 1970’s from what you say, or at least that’s what you seem to imply.

There is a certain group...

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'

August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."
"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."
"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)

1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."

We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.

Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."
(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).

When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."

When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."
(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)

Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

... prior to the 1970’s ...

Official Declaration—2

To Whom It May Concern:

On 30 September 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:

In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously.

President Kimball has asked that I now read this letter:

June 8, 1978

To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:

Dear Brethren:

As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.

Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.

He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color. Priesthood leaders are instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for worthiness.

We declare with soberness that the Lord has now made known his will for the blessing of all his children throughout the earth who will hearken to the voice of his authorized servants, and prepare themselves to receive every blessing of the gospel.

Sincerely yours,

Spencer W. Kimball

N. Eldon Tanner

Marion G. Romney

The First Presidency

Recognizing Spencer W. Kimball as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is proposed that we as a constituent assembly accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord. All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.

Salt Lake City, Utah, September 30, 1978.

People say, "God bless America", but is it not unreasonable to turn that around and insist that America first bless God by honoring His commands and the Judeo-Christian underpinnings that underwrote our greatness in the firstplace?

Are you still killing your unborn?

-- GOD

...the Judeo-Christian underpinnings that underwrote our greatness...

You mean...

Mayflower Compact

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620.

I’m pretty sure wardaddy ain’t Mormon.

Yeah; I’ve seen no indication either...

That’s true. The “Judeo” part emphasizes God’s law and His government beginning with the family and recorded in the Pentateuch. But you are right.