ELCA Has Biggest Split in American Church History

Steadfast Lutherans ^ | 7/12/13 | Rev. Kevin Vogts

[xone]

How ironic that you use the picture of the woman who stokes the pain of the perpetually aggrieved.

Which version of "The Jew an His Lies" is authentic? Probably the one Concordia published in the "Works of Martin Luther".

America isn't the Bride of Christ.

LCMS won't apologize I will: I'm sorry Luther wrote "The Jews and Their Lies".

[xone]

does have a small point to make.

I don't think he has one at all. Did you follow my linking where the LCMS addressed Luther's anti-semitism? Do that and then come back and tell me there is a specific point here, other than to have Christians whipping their backs because they prosletyze Jews.

[xone]

It looks like someone’s shot a flaming arrow at Archer, and he doesn’t realize he has the authority to put it out. The devil will mock at your shield of faith until you actually do use it... his biggest weapon is lies and misrepresntations....

And if not Christian, where is his refuge?

[xone]

prosletyze = proselytize

[TArcher]

>>I’m sorry Luther wrote “The Jews and Their Lies”.

Maybe even Luther was sorry he wrote it too.

The LCMS has a good, but incomplete, position paper on the Christian Identity Movement.

They should finish it by acknowledging that a significant work of propaganda used by such groups bears the name of their taxonomic progenitor - and DISCERNING the differences between the available translations.

Blowing the subject off only adds to speculation that the Concordia version is just a whitewash of previous translations.

[xone]

Blowing the subject off only adds to speculation that the Concordia version is just a whitewash of previous translations

Their translation would be the original one along with the rest of ML's work. No reason to whitewash, it is part of ML's history, it is what it is.

[TArcher]

>>Their translation would be the original one

What year was it published?

[xone]

Don't know, it was a footnote in one of your links, written between 1530-42 published in 1971 concerning "Wrestles with the Christian's ethical attitude toward governing bodies, those preaching false doctrine and the Jews. In these four treatises, written between 1530 and 1542, we see Luther wrestling with volatile aspects of the Christian’s ethical attitude toward the governing authorities, toward other Christians who appeared to be preaching incorrect doctrines, and toward the Jews." Luther’s Works

If not the first translation to english it is a valid translation as there is no reason to sugar coat his writings as they are widely known.

[TArcher]

Author:Martin H. Bertram

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←Author Index: Be

Martin H. Bertram

Works

• Luther's World of Thought, by Heinrich Bornkamm, translations by Martin H. Bertram (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1958)

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Martin_H._Bertram

 

VS:

Published by

CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST CRUSADE

P. O. Box 27895

Los Angeles 27, California

First English translation to be

published in the U . S. A .

Date of Publication: May, 1948

http://www.resist.com/Instauration/OtherPubs-20120723/TheJewsAndTheirLies-Luther.pdf

 

Two very different texts.

The CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST CRUSADE version [which I think maybe just contains excerpts] doesn't seem to have this:

[the unjust God lets such holy people curse (I wanted to say "pray") so vehemently in vain against our Messiah

and all Christians. He does not care to see or have anything to do either with them or with their pious conduct, which is so thickly, thickly, heavily, heavily coated with the blood of the Messiah and his Christians.]

http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/pdf/O/on-the-jews.pdf  (page 129)

"the unjust God"

"heavily, heavily coated with the blood of the Messiah and his Christians"

Is that Martin Luther's doctrinal opinion of the crucifixion?  

Gee whiz,  it sorta hard to reconcile that imagery from Martin Luther - with the whole "Christ Frees Us"...

... thing they were teaching/selling in Seward back circa 1984.  

No wonder "On the Jews and their lies" isn't referenced anywhere on the LCMS site.

Ooops.  Maybe in this case there's no "best possible construction" to construct.


I think the LCMS owes folks either an explanation, or a tuition refund.

[TArcher]

I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about,blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/pdf/O/on-the-jews.pdf 

The above quote is one you'll typically find being associated with the motivation of Mein Kampf. 
Can you find it in the Concordia version I found?  No?  Me neither.  Maybe it's been left out of the copy on the Internet.  Maybe it was never in the LCMS' version.  There is no copy on the LCMS.org site to refer to.

The "Colchester Collection" pdf doesn't specify a publication/translation date. 

Again, the LCMS has the resources, and I think the responsibility, to document the differences between the versions that are available and being quoted ON THE INTERNET.

[TArcher]

[So you’re saying churchs shouldn’t pay any taxes, exemption or not?]

Is that what you’re (mis)representing Christ as saying?

[TArcher]

Do you not know that when the wife of an LCMS Pastor/L.I.F.E.R. farts, the Angels dance in heaven?

[Mom MD]

Thank God! As a teenager I sometimes felt the LCMS was way to unyielding (about things like guitars in church) Now I am very greatful for the stiff spine. Of course I’m also greatful for the change in attitude about guitars in church. We have a rocking contemporary service!!

May God cont to bless the LCMS and other confessional Lutheran denominations until He returns for us.

[Mom MD]

Its not only homosexuality. They also refuse to condemn abortion and other sins that are clearly against Gods will.

[Mom MD]

My brothers church joined the LCMC when they finally fled the ELCA. The only issue I see with the LCMC is they are short on organization, governing documents, etc. The only common thread among them is most of their congregations are refugees from the ELCA. Hopefully they will evolve into a strong synod with well set out doctrinal standards to prevent a repeat of what happened in the ELCA.

[Mom MD]

I believe my brothers church kept their property when the left the ELCA but it was a bruising fight. The heirarchy of the ELCA came to the congregational meeting that led to the schism. They fully defended their apostasy and asked my brothers church to repent. He actually ended up standing up in the middle of the meeting and telling the bishop “Here I stand, I can do no other”. Ironic, huh.

[Mom MD]

Literally right after. By a storm on an otherwise nice day. Not a coincidence

[Mom MD]

Our doctrine is based on the Augsburg Confession. We never said Luther was infallible or everything he said was straight from God. He had character flaws like any other outstanding church figure all the way back to Peter and Paul. Some folks just don’t get it (not directed to you but to the poster that cant let go)

Luther was wrong on some things and a thoroughly unpleasant guy to deal with at times. So what? God used him mightily. But we follow Christ, not Luther.

[xone]

Buy the collection I referenced, and look it up yourself. Cherry picking a quote without a context is typical of those with an axe to grind.

Missouri Synod arose in the 19th century, German speakers, they wouldn't have need of a english translation for Luther's works.

Is that Martin Luther's doctrinal opinion of the crucifixion? Gee whiz, it sorta hard to reconcile that imagery from Martin Luther - with the whole "Christ Frees Us"...

Gee whiz, unless one was a total dolt it would be hard to reconcile, unless one had an agenda. Luther was a prolific writer, how does your slection of a quote compare and contrast with the greater body of work? Yeah, thought so.

[xone]

Again, the LCMS has the resources, and I think the responsibility, to document the differences between the versions that are available and being quoted ON THE INTERNET.

Then contact them, I'm sure they'll get right on it.