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To: BroJoeK

Now, you know I try to be as objective as possible in historical analysis. ;-)

The trends I posted are pretty obvious. You will note that the “deaths” of the nations I pointed out specifically had the Germans dying a generation later at Stalingrad. Why? Because they lost the first war, and were punished heavily for it. Plus, German hegemony of the Continent was an already ongoing historical trend. The Kaiser interrupted it with his neurotic policies, Hitler seriously interrupted it with his psychotic ones. But today, Germany is accomplishing economically what neither of them could militarily. I knew that would happen as soon as they knocked down The Wall. The Cold War, and NATO, which in the words of Helmut Kohl, existed “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in and the Germans down” was only an historical pause button.

And as you point out, there was “education and propaganda.” The German education and propaganda during the 1920’s and 30’s was all about “betrayal,” “stab in the back” and the like. Contrast that with the education and propaganda from 1955 to at least 1980. As I know I’ve posted before, I received a degree in Germanic Languages in 1981, and read a lot of German literature and screenplays to get my degree. It really wasn’t until 1955 that the Germans began to come to grips with the legacy of the war. Adenauer had been to Moscow to secure the release of the POW’s in Soviet captivity, and the price was recognition of East Germany. The division and occupation of the country seemed permanent.

As a result, the education and propaganda to the German people from that point on centered around the discussion of two very angst-ridden questions: “How could we have let this happen?” and “Was all our suffering and sacrifice for evil?” In the moral wrestling over those two questions you find much of the present mind-set of Germany. However, those memories fade as the generation that asked them disappears. Who knows what will replace them.

As for the other countries, like Britain, France and Italy, even though they “won,” they had to win twice, and I think the general consensus is they found them Pyhrric Victories that they just would not care to repeat. So their cultures are imbued with a sense of no longer willing to struggle or sacrifice. For anything. I follow Formula 1 racing; the technology is great, the drivers skilled, but off the track when you get a bunch of European lawyers involved, it’s really quite nauseating to see how they run their business with all the under-handed deals followed by a bunch of face-saving and compromise.


69 posted on 07/15/2013 8:29:46 AM PDT by henkster (The 0bama regime isn't a train wreck, it's a B 17 raid on the rail yard.)
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To: henkster

Agree with most of your comments, and also have some experience in Germany with Germans. No claim to expertise on the subject.

Let me suggest that European culture of 1914 resulted in large part from the complete defeat of Napoleon in 1815.
In 1815 the Old Order was then dead, a new order rose, prospered and dominated the world.

In1865 the American Old Order was completely defeated, a new order rose, prospered and dominated North America.

In 1919 the old order was only partially defeated, and in its place began to grow several different possible competing new orders.
From international socialism to national socialism to democratic socialism to...
They were all more or less socialists, which means at war with their own people, robbing themselves of cultural vigor, PLUS soon at war with each other, beginning in Spain.

Let me put it this way: “cultural decline” is a self inflicted wound — an autoimmune disease, where the body politic attacks itself in a basically insane effort to be rid of imaginary pathogens.

I think precisely that, rather than some post-romantic “disillusion” or angst explains Europe’s declines, cultural, political, etc.


72 posted on 07/15/2013 12:00:16 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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