Replies

“But they absolutely did provoke, start and declare war on the United States”

Provoke? How?

By saying they wished to leave the Union? I am sorry. I disagree. They were free to join and free to leave. That Lincoln chose force to try to keep the Union together isn’t the fault of the South.

Again, the South did not invade the North. The North for the most part escaped unscathed. The same is not so for the South which was destroyed and devastated.

“after which the Confederacy sent armed forces into every Union state and territory they could reach.”

You must have a different history book... Again, the only foray they made into Union territory was at Gettysburg, 2 years into the war.

“because they believed they could win it”

[[citation needed]]

Who believed it? Lee didn’t believe it. Jackson didn’t believe it. Jefferson Davis didn’t believe it.

Where are you getting this from?

“belief was based on their conviction that Northerners could not stomach the cost in blood and treasure of winning.”

There are citations from Lee at the beginning stating that he believed they would lose.

You seem not to understand the concept of duty, of honor. He did.

JCBreckenridge: "Provoke? How?
By saying they wished to leave the Union?
I am sorry. I disagree."

FRiend, I don't think you're stupid, just deliberately ignorant of history.
We have review all these facts on many Civil War threads over many years now, and they should by now be very familiar to everyone, even those who desperately want to stay uninformed.

The basic facts are that Secessionists, often even before formally declaring secession, began immediately to seized every Federal property they could, including dozens of Federal forts, ships, armories, arsenals and mints, etc.
These seizures -- not the simple declarations of secession, since many Northerners were just as happy to see the Slave Power depart -- but the unlawful seizures of Federal properties so enraged Northerners they were calling for military action as early as January 1861, two months before Lincoln even took office.

But while outgoing President Buchanan publicly condemned unauthorized secessions, he took no actions to stop the unlawful seizures of Federal property.

So by the time Lincoln finally took office, only two important Federal properties remained in Union hands -- Forts Sumter and Pickens.
Lincoln announced publicly his intentions to hold them, and then advised the South Carolina governor of his mission to resupply Fort Sumter.

SC Governor Pickens had long recommended to Jefferson Davis that Sumter be seized by military force, and now Davis ordered that to happen.

By any standards in the world, a military assault on a defending force is an act of war, and that war was the Confederacy's choice.

JCBreckenridge: "You must have a different history book... Again, the only foray they made into Union territory was at Gettysburg, 2 years into the war."

Again, such facts have been rehearsed on FR threads, including this one, many times over the years.

The list of Union states "visited" by Confederate forces includes: Maryland (1862 Antietam), Pennsylvania (1862, 1863 and 1864), Ohio and Indiana (Morgan 1863), Kentucky, Missouri and Oklahoma (throughout the war), Kansas (1863), New Mexico & Arizona (1862).
Smaller Confederate units also operated in California, Colorado, Vermont and even New York.
For details on any of these, simply google "US Civil War" and add the state name.
The result will be a long list of articles on how Civil War affected each state you request.

JCBreckenridge: "Who believed it? Lee didn’t believe it. Jackson didn’t believe it.
Jefferson Davis didn’t believe it."

If they did not believe they would find a way to win, then why would they start the war?

In fact, what they expected to happen was:

Europeans, especially Brits would support the Confederacy militarily.
And that might have happened, but didn't, for various reasons.
All slave states would join the Confederacy, including Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, along with Oklahoma and New Mexico territories.
And that might have happened, but didn't, for various reasons.
The Union would have no real stomach for war, especially if Kentucky, Missouri and Maryland joined the Confederacy.
And that also might have happened, but didn't, for various reasons.
Even if the Union did accept their war, Southern courage, gallantry and military leadership would more than make up for the Union's advantage in men and materials.
And that certainly seemed to be happening at the war's beginning, but due time proved the Union as capable of courage and good leadership as any Confederate force.

JCBreckenridge: "There are citations from Lee at the beginning stating that he believed they would lose."

Lee and several others certainly knew the Confederacy could not win a long war, but hoped to win enough militarily for a negotiated peace.
But Lee was not in charge -- was still a Union officer -- when Davis made the decisions to start war at Fort Sumter.

So Lee's job, when he first joined the Confederacy, was to make the best of a less than desirable situation.

JCBreckenridge"You seem not to understand the concept of duty, of honor. He [Lee] did."

So now you will cite for us you own military service, FRiend?
Do you suppose that your rank or years of service were higher than mine?
And this will prove that you are "outstanding" and I am less so?
And your point in the exercise is what, exactly?

In fact, I and some of my relatives or ancestors have served this country in every major war, beginning with the Revolutionary War, and up through todays "war on terror."

Is that enough "sense of duty" to satisfy you, our would you insist that the only true "patriots" are those who fought against the United States? </sarc>