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To: Lee'sGhost; Sherman Logan
Lee'sGhost: "Get it? Our founders lived in a culture that considered blacks to be subhuman.
So, in their minds, saying that “all men are created equal” while sanctioning slavery in ALL 13 colonies/states, was not hypocritical.
Nor were they stupid or liars.
They simply did not believe blacks were “men” in the same way that white people were.
If you cannot grasp this simple, well-documented truth there is no need for further discussion."

Sorry, Lee, but the simple, well-documented truth is that most if not all Founders, including Washington, Jefferson and Madison, well understood that slaves were not simply live-stock.

Indeed, at the Constitutional Convention in 1787, slave-holders wanted to count their slaves as "fully human" for purposes of census and representation, equivalent to fully-human women and children.
But northerners scoffed that if Southerners could count all their slave "property", then Northerners should count their cattle too!
Finally, Southerners reluctantly agreed to only count slaves as "three-fifths human" -- not because they wanted it, but because that was the most Northerners would agree to.

As Sherman Logan and others point out, most Southern Founders in 1787 understood that slavery was wrong, and could be restricted.
So they agreed to outlaw the international slave-trade, and later banned slavery in the new "Northwest Territories".

Washington freed his own slaves in his will, and Jefferson even proposed a plan for the Federal Government to purchase freedom for slaves.
Jefferson's plan went nowhere, because slave-owners wanted no part of it, but Jefferson at least understood the moral problem with slavery.

However, by 1860 most slave-holders believed slavery was not only necessary to their economic well-being, but also morally justifiable and ethically good.
Indeed, they considered slavery such a good thing, they would tolerate no discussions of subjects like abolition or even lesser restrictions on their "peculiar institution".
Hence secession on Lincoln's election.

Lee'sGhost to Sherman Logan: "My explanation — is based on facts — makes perfect sense.
Your arguments, based on nonsense, do not."

Sorry, Lee, but you have it exactly backwards.

;-)

108 posted on 03/21/2013 10:48:58 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

Anybody other that lying neo-comms have a comment?

The answer above speaks for itself...if you hear it over the belly laughs.


109 posted on 03/21/2013 10:57:17 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: BroJoeK
But northerners scoffed that if Southerners could count all their slave "property", then Northerners should count their cattle too! Finally, Southerners reluctantly agreed to only count slaves as "three-fifths human" -- not because they wanted it, but because that was the most Northerners would agree to.

You only have half the story there. The Southerners wanted the slaves counted in order to increase their representation in Congress. Many Northern representatives at the convention made the offer that they would do that only if they were freed, giving them voting rights. The 'cattle' comment wasn't because they thought of them as sub-human but as a mockery to the slave owners wanting them counted but not treating them as human. The 3/5ths clause came from restricting slave owning state's representation until they freed the slaves. There was a lot of abolitionist sentiment among many of the founders.

115 posted on 03/21/2013 11:29:21 AM PDT by mnehring
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