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To: JCBreckenridge
JCBreckenridge: "The point is - the South wasn’t necessary.
For anything. Lincoln’s victory proved that they could entirely be ignored when making policy."

Let me try an analogy... let's see...

You are an important person in your family, right?
Nothing big happens without your input, and at least acquiescence, right?
So that makes you somewhat similar to the Southern Slave-Power in the Federal government before 1860.

Now, let's suppose that, for whatever reason, you walk out on your family and they, to your shock, figure out how to get alone just fine without you.

So whose fault is that?
Is that their fault, or is it yours?
It's yours of course.

And so it was in 1860, when Southern Democrat "Fire Eaters" walked out of their ruling majority Democrat party, splitting it in half and thus engineering the election of minority Republican Abraham Lincoln.

JCBreckenridge: "even if the Democrats were all one party, they could not win.
It simply was not possible due to the 85 electoral votes for New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania, combined."

Of course, I understand that argument, I've studied the numbers myself, and I know they show: "you can't get there from here".

What I'm saying is that if Democrats had been as united and enthusiastic in 1860 as they were in 1856, they could easily have attracted enough, in today's term, "low information" Northern voters to elect their candidates.

Pennsylvania is a good example.
Then as now it was a "blue" Democrat state in 1856, but the 1860 party split cost Democrats 35,000 "low information" voters, who switched to Republicans, giving them the margin of victory.

The same is true in other traditionally Democrat states, like Indiana, Illinois, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee and California -- those would give a united Democrat ticket more than enough electoral votes to win the Presidency.

So, what I'm saying is that Democrat defeat in 1860 was not inevitable, far from it, it had to be engineered, and those engineers were Southern "Fire Eaters", who had been campaigning for secession for many years.

The 1860 election was Fire Eaters' opportunity for success, and they took it.

379 posted on 03/12/2013 3:11:11 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

I agree with what you say, but would like to expand on it a little.

Prior to around 1850 there was no such thing as a North vs. South dichotomy in American politics. Since at least the War of 1812 the country had been politically split into three sections, East (what we now call the Northeast), West (the free states from Ohio to Minnesota and Iowa), and South (the slave states). Some states, like MO and KY sort of vacillated between West and South.

All this time the country had been generally dominated by an alliance between South and West, both of which were heavily agricultural and thus economically aligned in interest against an increasingly industrial and financial East. The notion that in 1850 MS was agricultural and IA was industrial is just ludicrous.

For most of this time slavery was a back issue that most Americans just wanted to go away. Abolitionists were assaulted and sometimes murdered in the West and even in the East. They were (accurately) viewed as disturbers of the national peace.

All this was based on the notion that the expansion of slavery had been settled by the Missouri Compromise in 1820. North of the southern boundary of MO would be free territory.

The southern extremists started pushing for the right to expand slavery into all the territories, with the Dred Scott ruling and the Nebraska Acts.

Men of the West were perfectly happy to have blacks enslaved in the South, but did not want to live next to them, or to free blacks for that matter, so in self-defense they turned against the South’s drive for expansion beyond previously accepted limits.

Meanwhile southerners, accurately or not, felt more and more at risk and they saw as mere self-defense what the East and West saw as aggression.

Which meant throughout the 1850s both sides saw themselves as merely defending themselves against attack by the others. The very natural and human response was to line up with others who felt the same, creating the North vs. South split that finally showed up in the 1860 election.

I see even most of the fire-eaters as thinking of themselves as in self-defense mode, not attack mode. They believed, probably accurately, that the only chance to preserve the institution of slavery in the long run was for the South to be its own country. Hence their maneuvering to create conditions under which the Union would fracture.


382 posted on 03/12/2013 5:44:30 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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