Posted on 03/07/2013 4:27:10 AM PST by MuttTheHoople
President Hugo Chavez died of a massive heart attack after great suffering and inaudibly mouthed his desire to live, the head of Venezuela's presidential guard said late Wednesday.
"He couldn't speak but he said it with his lips ...
'I don't want to die. Please don't let me die,' because he loved his country, he sacrificed himself for his country," Gen. Jose Ornella told The Associated Press.
(Excerpt) Read more at apnews.myway.com ...
Here's what my 'idiotic' theology says about personal insults:
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
You make my point.
That was someone else's rule.
Your reading comprehension sucks.
And I wasn't really debating anything only pointing out the positive act you committed when you chose to believe in Christ.
But keep lying to yourself Pope Joshua.
BTW, I'll post to you anytime I want.
During an exorcism, a priest demanded a group of demons to explain why they fought so hard to possess a person and not retreat - to his amazement - they had to describe what was waiting for them if they lost the battle with the priest - why they fought so hard during exorcisms...Hell is where those souls - both human and demons - go to relive their regrets - standing so close to one another but so overwhelmed with their guilt they no nothing else but themselves — it was described as a cold place shrouded in darkness - a place where they would be for all time! ...so yes - the European description is way off!
If you notice in my post those words you seem to attribute to me are in italics indicating it is a quote (just as I put your words in italics). In that case it was the quote of the person I was addressing. I am neither Catholic or religious. Lastly, since before this point I did not have a conversation with you how was I bothering you?
OK, I can see where that would be pretty bad. But how do you expalin the "lake of fire" references?
The thing is, he wasn’t nailed to the cross because he had accepted Christ. He was going to suffer on the cross regardless of how he determined his eternal fate, and this had been determined before he ever met Christ.
Really, I can’t see this as penance.
I believe that a man can repent at the very last second of his life; however unlikely it is that he will do so. I don’t believe in punishment for those sins that are forgiven, although on Earth there can definitely be consequences that can’t be avoided.
What I do believe in is that there are rewards in heaven based on your faith and works based on that faith here on Earth. What are they? Don’t know.
You are correct there. And if that was your plan, how sincere would your repentance actually be. It's not just a matter of uttering some words, getting baptised, etc. You have to mean it.
And I'm pretty sure that God cannot be fooled.
Although I do not think that you can find an anti-Catholic statement by me on this discussion, or anywhere else for that matter, I would like to state my opinion that disagreeing with Catholic doctrine, even vehemently, is not "anti-Catholic" bigotry.
I worry these days about the smug self-righteousness of “feel good” Christianity: I'm saved by the Blood, and now I can continue living my consequence-free life, with no atonement for my sins. My get-out-of-jail-free card allows me to do this. Can we afterward commit acts so heinous (e.g., genocide) that we lose our salvation?
I worry about "feel-good" Christianity too. Of course we have to strive to follow Christ's example. We may fail due to weakness, or the Devil may tempt us. Happens to me often. But we try to do better because we love Christ. We don't just get a get out of Hell free card, but we don't achieve a perfectly sinless life, either. Not in this world.
Concerning your last sentence, what are your thoughts on Oliver Cromwell?
Penance is a condition of the heart.
One can do acts of penance, just as they can commit acts of jealousy or acts of passion. It is not suffering, other than the suffering one feels when acknowledging his own sinfulness.
I think many people seem to think penance is merely making recompense to those one has harmed.
Here is one Catholic definition (sorry if stating Catholic doctrine out loud disturbs you as it has obviously done to some others);
1. Spiritual change that enables a sinner to turn away from sin. 2. The virtue that enables human beings to acknowledge their sins with true contrition and a firm purpose of amendment. (See Penance, Virtue of.) Confidence in God's mercy and forgiveness is fundamental to the Christian virtue of penance, along with a determination to be conformed to the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ through the practice of mortification.
Exactly. Penance is a condition of the heart, not actions, and NOT, IMO, suffering. Except maybe for regret and remorse for sins committed.
As for Catholic doctrine, why would it offend me? I don’t get offended if a Muslim tells me Allah will throw me into Hell if I don’t accept their religion.
I do get offended if they were to try to force me to do so, or pay an extra tax for the privilige of not doing so.
It seems to me that if you have confidence that you are right with God, what others say doesn’t really matter, so why get offended. A lot of people don’t think that way, though.
That being said, there was nothing in your quote that I could not agree with, except that litle bit about mortification. I don’t exactly know what that means, but it doesn’t sound good, if I remember the little Latin that I had 50 years ago.
True. It was only because he asked forgiveness that he gained his entrance into paradise. As you say, he would have suffered either way. But his suffering ended once he died.
What I do believe in is that there are rewards in heaven based on your faith and works based on that faith here on Earth.
True again. Jesus, himself, said this in Matthew 16:27 and this was also said in Revelation 20:11-13. But, good works alone are not enough. As you say, the good works must be done in faithful service of the Lord to accomplish His goals.
You misunderstood mine.
And I don't know either, but a couple of folks reacted rather negatively to my posts on this thread. Oh well, can't please everyone, I guess.
Mortification is simply self-denial in pursuit of a greater closeness to God. It is avoidance of those things which lead to sin, a renunciation of one's sinful past life.
"If you live after the flesh", says the apostle, "you shall die, but if through the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live" (Romans 8:13; cf. also Colossians 3:5, and Galatians 5:24). Nothing more gruesome than that. ;0)
I don’t know who came up with that...but the description is in here — if you read this book - do so during the day - when the sun is out!
Martin, Malachi, Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Living Americans. New York: HarperSan Francisco, 1992
Well, if it makes you feel better, I wasn’t offended. We can’t all be right, but we can still all have our opinions, so why get upset over those of other people is my thought.
Drop in again on my comments anytime.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
1) In Hebrews 8 it talks of the new covenant, Christ. The old one is dead because of him. God states that to those who trust in him he will remember their sins no more.
If God erases your sins from his mind with the acceptance of his Sons sacrifice who is it doling out this penance the Catholic church loves using to keep the flock feeling undeserving?
2) In Matthew 7 Jesus refers to people as dogs and pigs. The scripture you posted above states you go to hell for calling someone fool. Is it worse to call someone a fool or dog and pig, or is it you have no idea what the meaning of the scripture you posted? The bible is a big puzzle that all the pieces must fit together. You can’t walk around holding up random pieces and claiming you put it together.
The bible says God flies with the wings of an eagle; is he a bird? We are told if someone slaps us we’re to turn the other cheek. If a man enters your house hits you and begins to rape your wife are you to turn the other cheek and let him continue? Of course not, but if we were to take the scripture literally as you did above we would have to let it happen.
This is my last response to you. As I said above I don’t find sport in this and I end up saying things I shouldn’t.
As I said, you misunderstood my point. I am far from steeped in legalism. Had you been willing to discuss what I wrote and asked for clarification instead of hurling personal insults, we could have cleared this up long ago.
1) In Hebrews 8 it talks of the new covenant, Christ. The old one is dead because of him. God states that to those who trust in him he will remember their sins no more. If God erases your sins from his mind with the acceptance of his Sons sacrifice who is it doling out this penance the Catholic church loves using to keep the flock feeling undeserving?
I couldn't answer. Perhaps you should ask a Catholic. I would be considered of the protestant faith. If I were to hazard a guess it's because, like the Jews of Jesus' time, the Catholics worship the power that comes with the position instead of worshiping the God of their fathers.
2) In Matthew 7 Jesus refers to people as dogs and pigs. The scripture you posted above states you go to hell for calling someone fool. Is it worse to call someone a fool or dog and pig, or is it you have no idea what the meaning of the scripture you posted? The bible is a big puzzle that all the pieces must fit together. You can’t walk around holding up random pieces and claiming you put it together.
Nowhere in Matthew 7 does Jesus refer to all people as dogs and pigs. Rather, what he says is to refrain from discussing holy things with people who are unholy.
It's funny that you bring up Matthew 7, because at the very beginning Jesus admonishes us that we should not judge others because with what measure we mete out judgement, that measurement of judgement shall be used against us when we stand before the throne and our works, i.e.: with what was in our hearts when we performed the deeds done during this life.
You're right. The Bible is a big puzzle. And, as you point out, all the pieces must fit together in order to glean the true intent of both the OT and Jesus' lessons in the NT.
Why did God punish the Jews in the OT? Because despite his loving them, taking care of them and making them His chosen people, they repeatedly turned away from Him.
Why did Jesus come, and why will he return? To remind everyone that our first, and most important duty is to love God with all our hearts, all our soul, all our mind and all our strength.
Jesus saves us, not so we won't go to Hell. He saves us so we return home to our Heavenly Father.
The bible says God flies with the wings of an eagle; is he a bird? We are told if someone slaps us we’re to turn the other cheek. If a man enters your house hits you and begins to rape your wife are you to turn the other cheek and let him continue? Of course not, but if we were to take the scripture literally as you did above we would have to let it happen.
What you forget is that God presents us with many challenges. When you say, 'if this' or 'if that', what you omit is that God may be testing you, just as he tested Job.
God allowed Satan to wipe out Job's entire life and family merely to test Job's faith, did he not?
Are you now saying that your faith may not be similarly tested to find out whether you will trust in God to take care of you or whether you are a true disciple of Jesus Christ?
So, despite claiming to be a follower of Jesus, you are willing to ignore his admonishment to turn the other cheek to save your life.
What did He say? Something about he who chooses to save his life will lose it, but he who chooses to lose his life for His sake will find it? Are these words completely meaningless to you? Are they just words in an old and dusty book?
Or, are they words by which to live your short, mortal life to gain your Eternal heritage?
This is my last response to you. As I said above I don’t find sport in this and I end up saying things I shouldn’t.
I don't debate matters concerning God, neither do I insult another man's views because I know that behind every set of eyes, God looks back at me.
However, I am willing to discuss these matters, especially if it means I'll gain a greater understanding of God and His word.
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