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To: BroJoeK

Again, don’t color MD as simply a Federal state. It was heavily pro-south and basically divided. Lincoln knew he couldn’t be surrounded so sent in troops to hold it at gunpoint and later made sure pro-south politicians were arrested and unable to vote. Rather than run away and establish temp quarters as in earlier conflicts.

It’s disingenuous to glibly call it Fed territory, and I have little doubt similar situations existed in other of what used to be called border states.

You still can’t admit that invading territory for war purposes does not mean it is for permanency. Else we might have Canada, Mexico, Cuba, France, Germany, Japan, and Iraq. Why would we give any up?


176 posted on 02/23/2013 6:40:34 AM PST by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel
the OlLine Rebel: "Again, don’t color MD as simply a Federal state.
It was heavily pro-south and basically divided."

In fact, Maryland was far less divided than our pro-Confederates claim.

the OlLine Rebel: "Lincoln knew he couldn’t be surrounded so sent in troops to hold it at gunpoint and later made sure pro-south politicians were arrested and unable to vote."

You just have to remember the sequence of events there.
When the Maryland legislature voted 53 to 13 against secession, on April 29, 1861, no legislator was jailed, there was no official war declared (though de facto it started on April 12 at Fort Sumter), and no Confederate or Union soldier had yet been killed in battle with the other side.

Then on May 6, 1861 the Confederacy formally declared war on the United States, and a month later, June 10, the first battle deaths on both sides (Big Bethel).

Here's why that's important: the Confederacy's formal declaration of war, on May 6, 1861, meets the US Constitution's definition of "treason" for Confederate sympathizers in Union states such as Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri.
Article 3, Section 3:

This meant that Union legislators who voted for secession, after May 6, 1861, were subject to arrest and imprisonment.

the OlLine Rebel: "It’s disingenuous to glibly call it Fed territory, and I have little doubt similar situations existed in other of what used to be called border states."

All the Border States -- Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri -- had large majorities of Unionists, as demonstrated by their votes and military services.
All voted by large majorities not to secede.
All contributed two or three soldiers to the Union for every one to the Confederacy.

In the Upper South states of Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas, it was originally the same -- majority unionists -- until the Confederate assault on Fort Sumter convinced most they would have to chose sides, and so they chose two & three to one for secession.
But they all had significant Unionist territories, which in Western Virginia seceded from Virginia, and in Eastern Tennessee tried to secede from Tennessee.
So it would be every bit as, in your words, "disingenuous" and "glib" to call those Upper South states "Confederate", FRiend. ;-)

the OlLine Rebel: "You still can’t admit that invading territory for war purposes does not mean it is for permanency."

Sorry, but you are the one who can't confess the truth here: the Confederacy attempted by military force to take over Union states and territories of Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona and even Colorado (which they never actually reached).
Other Union states suffered Confederate raids (i.e., Gen. John Morgan) on a smaller scale but with the same ideas as Union General Sherman's "March to the Sea", including Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and Kansas.
Still others suffered smaller Confederate units disrupting and stealing supplies, including California, Colorado and (yes) Vermont.

Such highly aggressive Confederate actions against the Union, when added to their formal declaration of war (May 6, 1861) constituted as grave a threat as the United States has ever faced, and required the Constitutional response of war to achieve the Confederacy's Unconditional Surrender.

180 posted on 02/23/2013 9:12:48 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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