Pope Benedict to Resign for Health Reasons

Perhaps you could try to explain what point that individual was trying to make.

If it takes an outsider to decipher another's point; wouldn't that be classified as MindReading?

His Holiness would be well advised to retire to Castel Gondolfo and spend the rest of his days relaxing and enjoy an occasional glass of an excellent glass of cold local Frascati.

Your failure to actually answer my questions is noted.

Thank you.

Why is the “top man” any more protected than Jesus?

Why is this “top man” any different from the Apostles, all of whom were killed for their faith? Why is he any different from any other leader of the faith, who was martyred or suffered?

What about the Apostle Paul, who had his own physical infirmities he asked be removed, only for God to say that His grace was sufficient for him to deal with it.

Do you think God is everyone’s personal genie just there to grant every wish we have? That He’s just a vending machine that gives us whatever we want? We bang out a few formulaic words and we have to get what we want?

We all die. Being Christian doesn’t mean we will not die, not get sick, not suffer, as we are forgiven, the consequences of sin, the consequences of living in a fallen world, are still here for us. The difference is we know that through it all God is with us. It doesn’t take any faith to live if God gives you everything. People that get everything they want we call spoiled, self-centered little brats. We also call them the ungrateful takers that think they deserve entitlements. You want everyone to live like Paris Hilton or the people that think they deserve to live off other peoples’ money?

Your failure to actually answer my questions is noted.Your attempt to steer this thread to something about MY church is noted.

You want everyone to live like Paris Hilton or the people that think they deserve to live off other peoples’ money?

HHMMmm...

This deserves a picture; but I'll let it slide.

fine, miss the point entirely. you’re only arguing for the sake of arguing, andthat’s all you want to do. see ya.

You confuse the papacy with the caesaro-papalism. With the papacy, there was never more than an accidental relationship with political power. The Church as always been wllling to concede the secular power to the state, except where the state goes against the willing of God, steps over its bounds and claims to be God’s viceroy. Pretty much what Saul did, and which David did not. The conflict between the papacy and the emperors was always intence, and often the popes would set up a Jehu
against a defiant house of Omri

Leo XIII.one of our greater popes, lived to a very old age in the late 19th century. The last three or four years are not, however, productive, although Leo was not constantly in the public eye as Benedict has been.

fine, miss the point entirely. you’re only arguing for the sake of arguing, andthat’s all you want to do.

Ok; if you REALLY want to get to the heart of the matter....

Is Peter the 'rock'?

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
19. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

NIV Matthew 8:14
When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
28. "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
13. He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15. Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16. "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

NIV Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

NIV Numbers 20:8
"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

NIV Psalms 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

NIV Psalms 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

NIV Psalms 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

NIV Psalms 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

NIV Psalms 28:1

To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

NIV Psalms 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

NIV Psalms 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

NIV Psalms 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

NIV Psalms 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

NIV Psalms 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

NIV Psalms 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

NIV Psalms 89:26
He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

NIV Psalms 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

NIV Psalms 144:1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

NIV Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

NIV Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

NIV Isaiah 30:29
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

NIV Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

.....No other rock.............

And now you know the Biblical position!

You posted:

"So much for the healiung power of Jesus..."

Do tell ... what exactly did you mean by that?

Do tell ... are there any members of your particular congregation (whatever it may be) who have become ill, or aged, or even (gasp!) 'fallen asleep'?

Hmmmm?

What of the 'healing power of Jesus' in your particular congregation? Do you honestly expect that believers will never age, or get ill, or 'fall asleep'?

Do tell ... simply snarking from behind the cover of obscurity is a cowardly way of conducting oneself on the internet.

Wow ... I skipped over this gem in all the crap:

Thanks for showing that GOD won't even heal His top MAN in the Universe.

(Perhaps there is something amiss here???)

Yes ... there is definitely something amiss, here.

Anyone who expects that believers will not age, become ill, or 'fall asleep' has something amiss between his ears.

Do tell ... simply snarking from behind the cover of obscurity is a cowardly way of conducting oneself on the internet.

Yeah...

Isaiah 40:31

Doonesbury?

Wow ... that piece of leftist drivel is still being published?

And you keep up with it?

Wow.

Very educational.

So much for the healiung power of Jesus...

So now you're blaming God for the failing health of an 85 year old man (who puts in about 12 hours of work a day).

Incredible! What else do you blame God for?

You confuse the papacy with the caesaro-papalism.

I think it is Rome which confused it, though being more manifest historically than today, and under some popes more than others. One such pope which you must relegate to being confused would be the one this quote is attributed to:

Boniface VIII: “It is I who am Caesar; the Sovereign Pontiff is the only King of the Romans”, as he rode thru the city, carrying sword, globe and sceptre. (”Rome and its story”, p. 241, by Welbore St. Clair Baddeley, Lina Duff Gordon)

For,

• The Roman Pontiff "does not only have the office of inspection and direction," but enjoys "full and supreme power of jurisdiction, not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and governance of the Church dispersed throughout the world" (DS 3064) — The Pope Exercises Supreme Jurisdiction, General Audience â€” February 24, 1993 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930224en.html)

With the papacy, there was never more than an accidental relationship with political power. The Church as always been wllling to concede the secular power to the state, except where the state goes against the willing of God, steps over its bounds and claims to be God’s viceroy.

I see that as misleading, as after Christianity became the state religion, the church Rome progressively was able to act after the manner of the State, and made secular power an extension of itself in exercising church discipline — and which early Protestantism had to unlearn as regards this realm — sanctioning the secular power of the State as long as it was its instrument, its viceroy, and when its ruler would not comply then it called for his overthrow, and opposed any worship other than that of Catholicism in Catholic countries, while claiming universal jurisdiction over all the world and by means of the sword gaining rule over other domains.

...with the formal recognition of the Church by the State and the increase of ecclesiastical penalties proportioned to the increase of ecclesiastical offences, came an appeal from the Church to the secular arm for aid in enforcing the said penalties, which aid was always willingly granted.... In punishing offences of a purely ecclesiastical character the Church disposed unreservedly of the aid of the State for the execution of the penalty. — Catholic Encyclopedia Jurisdiction (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm)

• Pope Pius X Vehementer Nos: That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error. — http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_11021906_vehementer-nos_en.html

• Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), 24. [It is error to believe that] The (Catholic) Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect."-

• 77. “[It is error to believe that] In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.”

• 78. “[It is error to believe that] Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.” — Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852. Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), Issued in 1864, Section X (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm)"

• By the temporal power of the Pope we mean the right which the Pope has as a temporal or ordinary ruler to govern the states and manage the properties that have rightfully come into the possession of the Church. — http://baltimore-catechism.com/lesson12.htm

Satis Cognitum: “ This metaphorical expression of binding and loosing indicates the power of making laws, of judging and of punishing; and the power is said to be of such amplitude and force that God will ratify whatever is decreed by it.” — http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html

• The Council of Florence (1439): "We define that the Holy Apostolic See--and the Roman Pontiff--has primacy over the whole world..and father and teacher of all Christians...(DS 1307)

• Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, 1215: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.

But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action...

The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land. — http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

• Anysoever who, before this date, shall have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith,... shall be excluded on pain of invalidity from any public or private office,...all Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and goods of this kind shall be confiscated, made public and shall remain so, and shall be made the rightful property of those who shall first occupy them if these shall be sincere in faith, in the unity of the Holy Roman Church and under obedience to Us and to Our successors the Roman Pontiffs canonically entering office. — Cum ex Officii Nostri Pope Innocent III, 1207 (http://www.dailycatholic.org/cumexapo.htm) Note: This Constitution was reinforced in his Papal Bull Inter multiplices [December 21, 1566] by Pope St. Pius V

• "....Constitutions can be changed, and non-Catholic sects may decline to such a point that the political proscription [ban] of them may become feasible and expedient. What protection would they have against a Catholic state? What protection would they then have against a Catholic State? The latter could logically tolerate only such religious activities as were confined to the members of the dissenting group. It could not permit them to carry on general propaganda nor accord their organization certain privileges that had formerly been extended to all religious corporations, for example, exemption from taxation. [But] the danger of religious intolerance toward non-Catholics in the United States is so improbable and so far in the future that it should not occupy their time or attention." — The State and the Church (1922), pp.38,39, by Monsignor (and professor) John Augustine Ryan (1869–1945), imprimatur of Cardinal Hayes (http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/sac002.htm).

In stark contrast to the NT church, Rome engaged in waging spiritual wars after the flesh, including papal sanction of imprisonment and torture in order to deal with merely theological nonconformity, with the pope having secular power, and taught that the pope “was deprived of it in an unjust manner by political changes.” - http://baltimore-catechism.com/lesson12.htm

• The Church has the right...to admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction. Catholic encyclopedia Jurisdiction (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm)

• Pope Innocent IV, Ad extirpanda:

(25) Those convicted of heresy by the aforesaid Diocesan Bishop,surrogate or inquisitors, shall be taken in shackles to the head of state or ruler or his special representative, instantly, or at least within five days, and the latter shall apply the regulations promulgated against such persons. [ i.e., he shall burn them alive].

(26)The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody,...to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and specify their motives, {9} and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them,as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed.

(30)The head of state or ruler must carefully investigate the sons and grandsons of heretics and those who have lodged them, defended them, and given them aid,and in the future admit them to no public affairs or public office.- http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~draker/history/Ad_Extirpanda.html

• ...in the 1180s, the Church began to panic at the spread of heresy, and thereafter it took the lead from the State, though it maintained the legal fiction that convicted and unrepentant heretics were merely 'deprived of the protection of the Church', which was (as they termed it) 'relaxed', the civil power then being free to burn them without committing mortal sin. Relaxation was accompanied by a formal plea for mercy; in fact this was meaningless, and the individual civil officer (sheriffs and so forth) had no choice but to burn, since otherwise he was denounced as a 'defender of heretics', and plunged into the perils of the system himself...

Convictions of thought-crimes being difficult to secure, the Inquisition used procedures banned in other courts, and so contravened town charters, written and customary laws, and virtually every aspect of established jurisprudence. The names of hostile witnesses were withheld, anonymous informers were used, the accusations of personal enemies were allowed, the accused were denied the right of defence, or of defending counsel; and there was no appeal. The object, quite simply, was to produce convictions at any cost; only thus, it was thought, could heresy be quenched...

Once a victim was accused, escape from some kind of punishment was virtually impossible: the system would not allow it. But comparatively few were executed: less than ten per cent of those liable. Life-imprisonment was usual for those 'converted' by fear of death; this could be shortened by denunciations. Acts of sympathy or favour for heretics were punished by imprisonment or pilgrimage; there were also fines or floggings, and penance in some form was required of all those who came into contact with the infected, even though unknowingly and innocently. — Paul Johnson, History of Christianity, 1976 Athenium, pgs. 253-255.

• It [torture] was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull "Ad exstirpanda" of 15 May, 1252, which was confirmed by Alexander IV on 30 November, 1259, and by Clement IV on 3 November, 1265...

In the beginning, torture was held to be so odious that clerics were forbidden to be present under pain of irregularity. Sometimes it had to be interrupted so as to enable the inquisitor to continue his examination, which, of course, was attended by numerous inconveniences. Therefore on 27 April, 1260, Alexander IV authorized inquisitors to absolve one another of this irregularity. Urban IV on 2 August, 1262, renewed the permission, and this was soon interpreted as formal licence to continue the examination in the torture chamber itself. The inquisitors manuals faithfully noted and approved this usage. The general rule ran that torture was to be resorted to only once. But this was sometimes circumvented — first, by assuming that with every new piece of evidence the rack could be utilized afresh, and secondly, by imposing fresh torments on the poor victim (often on different days), not by way of repetition, but as a continuation...

When Clement V formulated his regulations for the employment of torture, he never imagined that eventually even witnesses would be put on the rack, although not their guilt, but that of the accused, was in question. From the pope's silence it was concluded that a witness might be put upon the rack at the discretion of the inquisitor. Moreover, if the accused was convicted through witnesses, or had pleaded guilty, the torture might still he used to compel him to testify against his friends and fellow-culprits. — Catholic Encyclopedia>Inquisition; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

• St. Thomas Aquinas (13th century). The Angelic Doctor never treats of torture in secular judicial inquiries. However, without mentioning the word, he does justify the contemporary Inquisition’s use of torture (recently introduced in 1252 by Pope Innocent IV)... in considering whether unbelievers may be "compelled" to the faith, he first acknowledges that those who have never been Christians (i.e., Jews, pagans and Muslims) may not be forced to embrace the faith, but then continues: "On the other hand, there are unbelievers who at some time have accepted the faith, and professed it, such as heretics and all apostates: such should be submitted even to bodily compulsion, that they may fulfil what they have promised, and hold what they, at one time, received".

• “If counterfeiters of money or other criminals are justly delivered over to death… much more can heretics, after they are convicted of heresy, be not only forthwith excommunicated,

but as surely put to death.” – Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, 2a, 2ae, qu. Xi, art. III.

The conflict between the papacy and the emperors was always intence, and often the popes would set up a Jehu against a defiant house of Omri

Regardless, the issue is that the NT did not wage war “after the flesh” against the theologically aberrant or seek to rule over those without. Instead, apart from the passive discipline of disfellowship, it relied upon spiritual power to discipline those within, nor did it raise up armies to subdue those without. (Jn. 18:36; 1Cor. 4:19-21; 5:4,5,12,13; 1Tim. 1:20; 2Cor. 6:4-10; 10:3,4; Eph. 6:12) This is how the Lord constituted His church, and which requires it to have spiritual power, versus becoming institutionalized, and which then persecutes those who operate after the Spirit of Christ. "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. " (Galatians 4:29)

well since I am not in the RCC it’s not a position I hold anyway. And it’s off topic on the thread.

What I am saying is for someone to say that because someone doesn’t get healed, regardless of who they are, somehow that is evidence for them to conclude we’re stupid for believing in God,

is ridiculous. The fact we don’t get every single desire we pray for fulfilled exactly the way we want them by - what they think God should be - a vending machine genie God granting every wish and having no greater purpose and plans than just our own - is ridiculous.

Just as a child doesn’t know all the ways (ie plans) of his/her parents, doesn’t know there’s a lot more that needs to be taken care of than just their immediate gratification and wants, and doesn’t know all the priorities and other things that must be done by their parents for them and other siblings, pets, etc, things that they can’t do now but may plan on doing when the time is right,

so too is the relationship with us and God.

I watched a show on the Military Channel about the Catholics helping Nazi war criminals escape after WW 11. Had never heard of that.