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To: tacticalogic; x; rockrr; Sherman Logan; donmeaker; IbJensen
tacticalogic: "The original 13 States existed before the federal government."

Yes, I know that's an article of faith amongst our Neo-Confederate secessionists (of whom perhaps Mike Church the best known?), but I follow Abraham Lincoln's logic in these matters:

Yes, these are all matters of definitions of terms (i.e., what is a "colony" versus a "territory", "state" or "Union", etc.), but in fact, Lincoln makes a valid point: the Union (First and Second Continental Congresses) was first formed by colonies, which were not yet states, and only the Union's Declaration of Independence first transformed them from colonies into states.
So Lincoln was correct to say: the Union made the states, not the other way around.
No state, in 1776 or later, declared its independence of the Union, and no original state had an independent existence outside the Union.

And every state after the original 13 was directly created by the Federal Government, which purchased or won the territory often before any Americans even lived there.


tacticalogic: "Texas was an independent republic before it joined the Union, through the efforts of it's citizens, not the US Government."

Texas had been a republic barely a year, in 1836, when it first proposed annexation to the United States.
The United States refused, and for nine years Texas suffered defeats and insecurity at the hands of Mexico and various Indian tribes.
Finally, in 1845 Congress agreed to annex Texas, and Texans voted their approval.
The deal cost the US $10 million in Texas' debts to be paid off.
That $10 million in 1845 is equivalent to around $82 billion in today's values, but at a time when total Federal Revenues were equivalent to circa only $300 billion (2% of GDP).
So, in terms of today's Federal revenues, that $10 million was equivalent today to taking on the burden of another $400 billion debt.

The deal annexing Texas also cost the US a major war with Mexico.
That was $71 million plus 25,000 deaths, equivalent in today's terms to $600 billion and 400,000 deaths.
In terms of today's Federal revenues, that $71 million for the Mexican-American War was equivalent to several trillion today.

Point is: While Texans were eager to become a state, for obvious reasons, the US was reluctant to accept Texas, and when it finally did, the price of Texas was very high.

Finally, when the Republic of Texas became the State of Texas in 1845, it assumed the same status as every other United State.


tacticalogic: "Supposedly the States that came from purchased US territory entered the Union as sovereign States, with all the Constitutional protection of the original 13."

Certainly, constitutionally speaking, no state is "more sovereign" than any other state.


tacticalogic: "You seem to be under the impression the States were created by the national government, not the other way around."

It is absolutely a fact of history that 37 of 50 states did not help create the Federal Government, and were instead created by it.
Of those original 13, it can certainly be debated as to which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I take Lincoln's argument on this, which is that colonies created the Union which then declared them free and independent states.

So, as Lincoln said, the Union came first, then the original 13 states.

132 posted on 12/19/2012 12:08:06 PM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
Our States have neither more nor less power than that reserved to them in the Union by the Constitution, no one of them ever having been a State out of the Union. The original ones passed into the Union even before they cast off their British colonial dependence

They declared their independence from Britain in 1776. Acting as independent, sovereign States they drafted and ratified the Articles of Confederation in 1781. They did not "pass into the Union" until the ratification of the Constitution in 1789. You may follow Abraham Lincoln's logic if you wish, but history records a different reality.

133 posted on 12/19/2012 5:06:46 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: BroJoeK

You’re too vague upon American history to be offering such commentary. Crack a book or two and get back to us.


134 posted on 12/19/2012 5:25:53 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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