[snarkybob]

Thanks for your replies.
I like thought out positions like yours, even if I disagree.
In this case the disagreement is actually not very much.

I’m not a class warrior. I do know that everything can’t be equal or there’s no inecntive to move forward.
I do believe tho that all labor has value. Even cleaning the muck from the gutters.

I’m not sure how it happened, that’s probably why it happened, but my experience with wage distortion is based on the construction trade in Texas.
When I left high school many of the boys in my peer group
myself included, opted to skip college.
We were all rural kids and most of us had been working some kind of blue collar labor job since we were old enough to work.
Obviously some blue collar jobs were’nt realistic. My senior year job was as a ranch hand and that didn’t pay enough to eat on a regular basis even back then.

Most of us that opted out of higher education got jobs as carpenters, drywallers, roofers, truck drivers....you get the gist.
Fast forward 15 years, suddenly these guys notice they’re being pinched. Everything costs more and they’re still within a couple of dollars an hour of where they started.

Then I started noticing that the construction crews were speaking less and less English.
At first I didn’t worry about it, figuring that anybody could drive a nail or make big piles out of little piles.
After a while though I started to realize that the trend for cheap labor had not only done away with what had been traditional entry level construction jobs, but the new workers were causing the pay for foremen and assistant foreman to stop getting bumped.

The new workers had none of the creative thought that you mentioned, they had zero curiosty about, or interest in their jobs other than to get a check on Friday. They were willing to work for just about half what the job had paid in previous years.

At about this same time I begin to notice that the materials used in construction jobs was getting crappier and crappier. I mean the cheapest junk that could be purchased.

I asked and was told that the cheap labor and materials were to keep the costs for construction projects low enough that they were affordable.

Funny thing, those projects kept right on climbing in costs and not just for houses but for things like roofs and floors and siding.

I wish I had some idea where it all goes from here, but IMHO the greed factor now outweighs the sense factor.
Some things have gotten cheaper, ChiCom junk from Walmart for example, but real goods and services haven’t stayed low cost.

The factory jobs seemed safe until the wave upon wave of outsourcing killed them as well.

The ripple effect has been catostrophic.
People work full time jobs to live on the margin. They fell into the easy credit trap. I know a lot of people who lived beyond their means via credit cards, but I also know a lot of people who were racking up CC debt just to stay fed and clothed.
God help you if you get sick or injured or miss a weeks work.
To get any kind of gainful employment you almost have to have a college degree that you then spend the next 15 years paying for. And even the college degree jobs aren’t paying at the top of the scale.

Somethings going to have to give. Because the people downsized or under employed or underpayed aren’t going to evaporate when they hit bottom. They’re going to come asking for assistance.
I’ve seen it said on this forum that a good parasite doesn’t kill its host, this is usually said about people on welfare, but the parasites at the top have done a pretty good job of it as well.

There’s a thread running now about what happened when the manufacturing sector was taken over by MBAs and displacing the designers, engineers, marketers and sellers who had traditionaly ran things.

Sorry this was so long winded. I had to take a break from FR and actually get a little something done.

Hope your Sunday is enjoyable.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for your replies. I like thought out positions like yours, even if I disagree. In this case the disagreement is actually not very much.  I thought this was a nice reply in light of some of my comments.  I appreciated it.  When you first wrote this to me as private comments, I expressed by appreciation of you being willing to listen and agree/disagree.  I am happy to do so here as well.

I’m not a class warrior. I do know that everything can’t be equal or there’s no incentive to move forward.   I do believe tho that all labor has value. Even cleaning the muck from the gutters.  I believe so too, but I'm not a big fan of a government or union entity coming along and declaring what that value is.  I respect people for doing work.  If a job needs to be done, someone needs to do it.  I respect the person who does it.  You'll never see/hear me putting someone down for the job they're doing, unless that job is gaming the citizens of the United States for the attainment of evil goals.

I’m not sure how it happened, that’s probably why it happened, but my experience with wage distortion is based on the construction trade in Texas. When I left high school many of the boys in my peer group myself included, opted to skip college. We were all rural kids and most of us had been working some kind of blue collar labor job since we were old enough to work. Obviously some blue collar jobs weren't realistic. My senior year job was as a ranch hand and that didn’t pay enough to eat on a regular basis even back then.  Most of us that opted out of higher education got jobs as carpenters, dry-wallers, roofers, truck drivers....you get the gist. Fast forward 15 years, suddenly these guys notice they’re being pinched. Everything costs more and they’re still within a couple of dollars an hour of where they started.

I think there are a lot of us who dropped out into decent paying jobs.  Although my story is a little different than yours, your description comes close enough for us to be in the same group, folks who opted to work rather than continue our education.  And even though times have changed, I believe there is a vital need for jobs like this.  Not everyone is going to have the aptitude, financial stability, or drive to continue on with higher education.  If everyone did, that would be a problem too.  Not every job requires a four year college degree.  It's not necessary, and actually counter-productive for everyone to have one.

Imagine everyone walking around with $50,000 to $250,000 dollar in college loans to pay off, and there being nowhere near the volume of high paying jobs to place them all in.  That would be very unfortunate.

Then I started noticing that the construction crews were speaking less and less English. At first I didn’t worry about it, figuring that anybody could drive a nail or make big piles out of little piles. After a while though I started to realize that the trend for cheap labor had not only done away with what had been traditional entry level construction jobs, but the new workers were causing the pay for foremen and assistant foreman to stop getting bumped.  The new workers had none of the creative thought that you mentioned, they had zero curiosity about, or interest in their jobs other than to get a check on Friday. They were willing to work for just about half what the job had paid in previous years.

I have seen this.  The construction industry used to be a great place for citizens to go when they didn't want to continue on with schooling.  Yes, some positions required more schooling such as electricians, but many positions paid a decent salary that folks could earn a living to support a family on.  I have railed against the cheap labor in this area for a long time.

At about this same time I begin to notice that the materials used in construction jobs was getting crappier and crappier. I mean the cheapest junk that could be purchased.

I don't work in the trades, but I dabble enough in my own projects to know what you're addressing.  I agree.

I asked and was told that the cheap labor and materials were to keep the costs for construction projects low enough that they were affordable.  Funny thing, those projects kept right on climbing in costs and not just for houses but for things like roofs and floors and siding.

Once again, I agree.  I've seen it.  I watch some of the HDTV shows, and even on those I spot plenty of inferior products and short-cuts, that are often described as better, or simply more green.  In many instance they are clearly NOT better.  They are simply more politically correct.  Those homes will not last as long.  In short order they'll begin to have problems.  They're just inferior.  Old homes lasted decades.  I watch some of these projects and recognize issues that will materialize in the future, and not that distant a future either.

I wish I had some idea where it all goes from here, but IMHO the greed factor now outweighs the sense factor.  Some things have gotten cheaper, ChiCom junk from Walmart for example, but real goods and services haven’t stayed low cost.

I agree.  The problem is, new homeowners don't know what a complete bucket of bunk they're being sold.  The homes they are purchasing can't possibly withstand the test of time.  By the time the mortgage is paid off, they'll be left with a lot of problems.  I am referencing some of the newer construction.  Older homes that have been updated have some pretty good bones.  They'll remain okay.

The factory jobs seemed safe until the wave upon wave of outsourcing killed them as well.  And lets add, wave upon wave of immigrant labor...

The ripple effect has been catastrophic.  I agree that the U. S. Citizen worker, and there-by the U. S. Citizens at large have been gamed over the last twenty years, and it has gotten as still getting worse.

People work full time jobs to live on the margin. They fell into the easy credit trap. I know a lot of people who lived beyond their means via credit cards, but I also know a lot of people who were racking up CC debt just to stay fed and clothed.
God help you if you get sick or injured or miss a weeks work.  And don't forget the interest rates that are now around 30%, when in the old days someone would be prosecuted for trying to enforce these interest rates.

To get any kind of gainful employment you almost have to have a college degree that you then spend the next 15 years paying for. And even the college degree jobs aren’t paying at the top of the scale.  Yep.  That's right.  And as I was telling someone several days ago, I think we did this to ourselves to a certain degree.  We effectively doubled the work-force by having two wage earner families.  What did we expect that to do to wages?

Somethings going to have to give. Because the people downsized or under employed or under-payed aren’t going to evaporate when they hit bottom. They’re going to come asking for assistance.  I’ve seen it said on this forum that a good parasite doesn’t kill its host, this is usually said about people on welfare, but the parasites at the top have done a pretty good job of it as well.

Well, I think we have all contributed to what ails us to a certain extent.  I do agree that parasites have cropped up, but I'm reticent to call the current crop 'good' in any sense of the word.  Don't get me wrong, I don't consider someone with a hand out to be a parasite, until they decide to stay in that status by intent.

There’s a thread running now about what happened when the manufacturing sector was taken over by MBAs and displacing the designers, engineers, marketers and sellers who had traditionally run things.

Should be interesting, but I'll take a pass.  We've spent enough time on these subjects today.

Sorry this was so long winded. I had to take a break from FR and actually get a little something done.  No problem.  I appreciate the discussion.

Hope your Sunday is enjoyable.

At this point, I merely hope yours was enjoyable.  Take care.

A