Poland against new UN internet 'censorship threat'

The News PL ^ | November 27 2012

[knighthawk]

Poland is to oppose a UN agency proposal to renegotiate an international internet treaty which critics say would threaten freedom of expression on the web.

The UN International Telecommunication Union (ITU) is to meet behind closed doors in Dubai between 3 and 14 December, where 193 countries are being asked to agree a new information and communications International Telecommunication Regulations (ITR) treaty, which would change the way domain names are monitored and IP addresses are assigned.

The effect of the new treaty would be to take away the domain name system and other technical specifications, currently run by organisations in the US, and give them to a new international body.

The Polish government has said, however, that it will oppose the changes to the treaty.

[Sam Gamgee]

I suppose it is hard sometimes to distinguish between the actions of the state of Poland and its people. For instance under the Soviet umbrella, Poland, in the UN assembly usually opposed measures by the US and Israel.

And now Poland is a staunch US ally. It makes you wonder what changed?

[dfwgator]

The Communist government in Poland was pretty hard on Jews, they drove most of the remaining Jews out of Poland in 1968, under the guise of an “anti-Zionist” purge, following the 1967 Six-Day War.

Today, Poland is Israel’s staunchest ally in Europe. There is a new Museum in Warsaw which is dedicated to the history of Polish Jews, so the new generation is learning of the legacy of Jews in Poland.

[Sam Gamgee]

I guess the point perhaps is that is was the GOVERNMENT not necessarily the sentiment of Polish people that caused the driving out?

I understand part of the reason Jews are friends of the left is they credit communism where it rescued Jews from the Nazis (such as happened in Hungary) but ignore the purges that came after?

[Cronos]

I got the impression that Jews were basically left to their own devices during the resistance against the Nazis because Polish freedom fighters didn't want Jews in their ranks -- not really: the Armie Krajowa (the polish underground army -- and remember Poland was the only nation conquered by the Nazis that never surrendered officially and didn't collaborate at a national level -- the reason is also because the GErmans wanted to destroy the Polish nation -- whether Jewish Poles or Christian Poles)

Anyway the AK had a section for Jewish affairs -- the head of which, Henryk Wolinski is in teh Yad Vashem

These provided information about Jewish ghetto formations, slave camps, movements to Treblinka to the US and UK's government and mass media -- but this was ignored by the governments and mass media

Have you heard of Jan Karski or Witold Pilecki? Witold broke INTO Auschwitz and gathered information on the atrocities there -- and Jan took this to Churchill and FDR who ignored him

The Jewish Combat Organization ( Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa) received some weapons from the AK and the AK units tried twice to blow up the ghetto wall and one unit under Henry Iwanski fought alongside the ZOB Jewish unit

I've read Leon Uris' Mila 18 too and that was my first book on Poland -- years before I met my wife and years more before I moved here and learnt about the history around this --> he brings up a view of an American Jew who didn't see the situation on the ground -- Szpilman (the Pianist) gave a different perspective

Leon Uris doesn't point out that the AK didn't have a great stack of weaponry -- they didn't get much weaponry from the WEst and none from the Soviets (who viewed the anti-communist AK as the enemy alongside the Nazis). Note what happened in the Warsaw Uprising a year after the ghetto uprising -- the Germans were retreating and the AK rose up to throw them out. But they couldn't -- their weapons etc. were not enough and 70% of warsaw was razed to the ground (yes, the city is completely rebuilt)

[Cronos]

I got the impression that Jews were basically left to their own devices during the resistance against the Nazis because Polish freedom fighters didn't want Jews in their ranks -- Also the problem with this is that we need to read the other conflicts around this -- do read Adam Zamoyski's "Battle of Warsaw 1920" --> in 1920 the Soviets tried to conquer Poland and were beaten back. Poland hated the communists as much as they hated the nazis and the communists realized that Polish nationalism was a block to them

The ZOB was leftist-leaning (not communist) which affected relations with that organization -- but there were still weapons supplied by the AK to ZOB.

There were also many Jews in the Polish Resistance: MArek Edelman, Henryk Chmielewski, Shlomo Aronson, Szmul Zygielbojm , Julian Aleksandrowicz

[Cronos]

Also that Jews fled Poland to Palestine in the early 1900s because of persecution in Poland?

Ok, one needs to understand the history -- in the early 1900s Poland didn't exist - it ceased to exist from 1793 to 11 Nov 1918

There was persecution in the Russian occupied parts of Poland and to some extent in the other two -- as I mentioned above

note the other BIG reason: the rise of nationalism since the French revolution --

in 1783 only 10% of France spoke what we call "French", the Russians were ambivalent about nationality (there was even a proposal to rename the country Petersland after Peter the great), the English had a number of dialects as well as Celtic languages etc. and Germany didn't exist

But in the 1800s nationalism arose and the Russians, French, Germans and English forced their minorities to conform -- the Russification of the Baltic Germans, Poles, Baltics, Finns etc. went forward - and the same in Germany and France and yes the UK (when Welsh was banned with Cornish etc)

Jews were also affected by this -- some assimilated to become Russian or Polish or German or etc. and some retreated to the old ways and some realized the need to move to Zion

the Russians persecuted the Jews just as they persecuted their other minorities to become Russian (NOTE though, the ordinary Russians had life almost as hard in any case)

But when Poland was recreated in 1918 there were many Jews who joined in this recreation

There was some violence against Jews, but no widespread one and this must be placed in the context that the entire lands of the Poles were invaded by 4 different armies in 5 years until 1920, was torn by fights between Poles, Soviets, Lithuanians, Ukrainians etc.

In fact the Jewish population rose to become 10% of the population

There was a National Party (NP) which had some anti-semitic views, but they had anti-minority views as well -- they wanted all to become Poles, and all the Poles to speak the same version of Polish - so they antagonized the Lithuanians, Belarussians, Germans and Ukrainians living in Poland as well as the Jews. But the minorities were 34% of the population and also the ND didn't have a majority support among Poles -- the Poles instead revered Josef Pilsudski, the guy who won Polish independence and who, of Lithuanian origin, believed in teh multi-cultural, mutli-ethnic, multi-religious character of the Old Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

[Cronos]

And now Poland is a staunch US ally. It makes you wonder what changed?

Well, communism fell and the Red army isn't at the gates of Poland, right?...

[Cronos]

The Communist government in Poland was pretty hard on Jews, they drove most of the remaining Jews out of Poland in 1968, under the guise of an “anti-Zionist” purge, following the 1967 Six-Day War.

Well, yes and no -- in the years following the war they didn't do this. They had a visible % who were of Jewish origin (athiests by religion) and in the 60s, to divert people's attention they turned on Jews and Germans living in Poland

you know the old thing "ooh, ignore the problems caused by governmetn and look at these minorities who are the root of your problems"

[Cronos]

I understand part of the reason Jews are friends of the left is they credit communism where it rescued Jews from the Nazis (such as happened in Hungary) but ignore the purges that came after?

Again, it's wrong to blanket an entire group -- they are not "friends of the left" -- some are, definitely not all

Communism was a false god -- and I emphasise "god" as you had to reject your religion to join them

[Cronos]

I suppose it is hard sometimes to distinguish between the actions of the state of Poland and its people.

well, no, its not. For instance, did you know that the Obama regime actively targets countries that do not give "gay rights"?

[Cronos]

Sorry, to add to the above — Obama’s actions in no way signifies the actions of the US people.

[Verdelet]

I'm sorry I can't reply to this topic as often as I would like to, but it's mostly due to time difference and workload I have;)

It's amazing how totalitarian regimes find it easy to target minorities and blame them for governments inadequacies.
Nazis did it, Commies did it, Sino-Commies did it, every muslim teocratic regime did it.

[Cronos]

It's amazing how totalitarian regimes find it easy to target minorities and blame them for governments inadequacies.

It's not just totalitarian regimes. But in the case of communists it made logical sense as the system failed in the 50s as it is impossible to command run a complex economy

[dfwgator]

True it wasn’t always that way in the PRL....there were two main factions in the ruling Polish United Workers Party, one of which was known as the “Nationalist” wing, who were the more anti-semitic wing, which Bierut was able to keep in line to a degree. Once Gomulka took over, they gained the upper hand in the party, and in response to the growing protests that were taking place in the Universities there, and also to divert attention from the failing economy, they took it out on their “domestic enemies.” I think what happened in 1968 did more to poison future relations between gentile Poles and Jews than what happened during WWII.

One story about 1968 that wasn’t widely known was that Irena Sendler, threatened to once again harbor Jews, like she did during the war. In response, the Communists expelled her children from their universities.