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Biden was an ass. I never said different. What I said was that it was his job to attack R+R and he did. He was not going for popularity points. Ryan on the other hand kept smiling and playing nice guy. In fact SNL did a pretty funny skit on it.

I saw Frank Luntz today on a Sunday show say that he did a focus group on the debate and they said that they thought Biden won on points, but they didn't like his behavior. Luntz concludes “They told me that Biden didn't change any of their minds”

Did Tom Brokaw say that he will vote for Romney now? Of course not. That was my point.

I saw Frank Luntz today on a Sunday show say that he did a focus group on the debate and they said that they thought Biden won on points, but they didn't like his behavior.

Bear in mind that the Luntz group was composed overwhelmingly (90%) of Obama 2008 voters. I didn't think either won on substance.

"They told me that Biden didn't change any of their minds" Did Tom Brokaw say that he will vote for Romney now? Of course not. That was my point.

I agree that the VP debate (as expected) does not matter much. If something like that happened during an Obama-Romney debate, that might be a horse of a different color, maybe like Gore appearing to encroach on GWB's territory during one of their debates. But I think even that was not a game changer.

RE :”Look, be honest with yourself. You’ve seen the list of journalists that think Biden was an insulting boor the other night. If Tom Brokaw thinks he was an ass, then I’m fairly certain a lot of others think so too. Or do you think Tom Brokaw is on our side now?”

Biden was an ass. I never said different. What I said was that it was his job to attack R+R and he did. He was not going for popularity points. Ryan on the other hand kept smiling and playing nice guy. In fact SNL did a pretty funny skit on it.

Yes he was, and I realize you didn't say different. I know what his job was, but I don't believe we agree on the impact. I do agree that die hard Democrats are going to give him slack over it. I do not think Independents will. I particularly don't think Independent women will. If you were a person still trying to make up your mind, Biden offended you.

I saw the Biden/Ryan debate skit on SNL. Some of it was pointedly against Biden. There were some ribbing of Ryan in there too. I came away mostly neutral on it. There was so much fertile ground there, and I think they missed a number of opportunities.

I saw Frank Luntz today on a Sunday show say that he did a focus group on the debate and they said that they thought Biden won on points, but they didn't like his behavior. Luntz concludes “They told me that Biden didn't change any of their minds”

No disrespect to you intended on this count, but Luntz is hardly the guy I would use to make an unbiased point concerning a debate. Remember when Cain won that debate and his focus group was close to unanimous with that mindset? Luntz was speachless, dismissed them, and cut back to the anchors. When they came back to him, he had changed the point and never gave Cain his due. If someone did try to address their view of a Cain win, he wouldn't let them talk. He interrupted them and put them down because he didn't see any reason why they should think Cain won.

The focus group they had this time was supposed to be unbiased, but there were clear evidences of bias as soon as the focus group members began to explain their views. A number of staunch Obama supporters spoke up. These folks were die-hard Obama supporters. There was no hint of neutrality. A neutral person says something like, well I didn't care for Biden's actions, but I still think he won the debate overall. No, their responses went way beyond this. So I'm having to dismiss this group based on the failure of the premise they were neutral going in. Luntz needs to be replaced IMO.

Did Tom Brokaw say that he will vote for Romney now? Of course not. That was my point.

And it's a reasoned point to make. The reality is, that when ten to twenty fairly well known Leftist talking heads describe Biden's actions for what they were candidly, those watching take away the belief that their views leaning in the same direction were not off base. Brokaw and the others reinforced the opinion a lot of people had. That's not going to break Obama's way when we're talking about Independents or folks who were already having grave doubts about supporting Obama/Biden.

That's not a win for Biden. It's not a win for the team. Independents and women got an eye full. Too bad for Obama/Biden.

I think there's a real possibility that the Obama/Biden/Press team realized that Biden's actions had cost them. It's my take that group of talking heads were involved in a mop-up action, seeking to mitigate the damage. They were tasked with agreeing publicly that Biden really screwed up, but at the same time saying it wouldn't affect their vote. That's the take-away they wanted. The take-away for non-diehards, was that Biden was boorish, and the team isn't worthy of support.

Agree or not, that's my take-away.