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To: Rashputin; narses

All churches bowed to Hitler. They did not stand and say no. Like the churches of the United States have bowed to the IRS.


37 posted on 09/22/2012 2:18:28 PM PDT by bmwcyle (Corollary - Electing the same person over and over and expecting a different outcome is insanity)
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To: bmwcyle

Actually the Catholic Church did say no on a number of occasions.

There were three religious bodies which distinguished themselves in opposition to the Nazis:

1) The Catholic Church
2) The Swedish Lutheran Church (in Northern Germany especially).

3) The Jehovah’s Witnesses - who resist every government really.


39 posted on 09/22/2012 3:20:01 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: bmwcyle; narses
This is the first time I've heard that. The Catholic Church read out a proclamation against Hitler when he was first elected and again after they burned the Jewish Synagogues. I first heard all of this when a German Lutheran pastor and several other Lutherans who had lived thorough the period spoke to our Lutheran Church. According to these folks the majority of Lutherans went along with Hitler and when Catholics spoke out against him most Lutherans were glad that the State cracked down on them so that maybe more people would leave the Catholic Church.

One of these folks who had been an officer in the German Army when Hitler too over said that in '37 they had an influx of Catholics who were drafted out of seminaries and were told to make sure they were trained for combat units rather than support units. Apparently the training was through a regionalized system as this man said he wasn't sure whether that was nationwide or only in the area he was serving in, but obviously someone had decided there were not exemptions for Catholics in seminary while Lutherans were still exempted. He said the Nazi supporters in the Army thought it was a good way to help end Germans becoming priests while the regular Army folks weren't so sure it was a good idea given the need for educated people in other capacities.

Maybe you have better sources than these speakers but given the diversity of the four folks who spoke I'd be surprised if they had a distorted picture of things. I am sure, however, that a great many people who write books and articles these days are determined to rewrite history to suit themselves. IMHO, you're misled if you think the majority of any group other than the State Church (which was the Lutheran Church) cooperated with Hitler. Some small Protestant groups formed what they called the German Christianity movement but even large numbers of Baptists and other denominations only cooperated to the degree they were forced to while the Lutheran Church actively supported him.

Lutherans like Bonhoeffer who spoke out against Hitler were the exception which is why he survived so long. Others who didn't have the Lutheran Church on their side were silenced or drafted into some sort of service (military or forced labor) well before the war even started according to what we were told. In addition, the eugenics programs Hitler modeled US eugenics laws were all acceptable to the Lutheran Church both here and in Germany but universally opposed by the Catholic Church.

You can bet that as a good Lutheran who had read and reread Bonhoffer I was absolutely shocked to hear this from German Lutherans who had lived through it all but I see no reason to doubt what they had to say. As the Lutheran pastor who spoke said during the Q&A session, talk about how Catholics and even other non-Lutheran Protestant groups cooperated with Hitler are based on either select propaganda the Nazi party published or a clear case of the survivors writing the history. Survivors who have a vested interest in making everyone seem just as complicit as they were. I guess that's why a lot of Lutherans were always anxious to talk about how the German Army belt buckles had "God Is With Us" stamped on them even though that was a holdover from the WWI equipment used initially rather than based on anything the Nazi regime had anything to do with.

Without a lot of trustworthy new information I think I'll stick to what I heard from people who were there rather than accepting the broad brush some folks like to paint with.

41 posted on 09/22/2012 4:35:21 PM PDT by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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To: bmwcyle; Rashputin
All churches bowed to Hitler.
History is clearly not your strong suit, right? Look up Alfred Delp and Maximilian Kolbe, just to name two.
50 posted on 09/22/2012 6:40:42 PM PDT by narses
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