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To: livius
Islamic and all Third World cultures possess only tribal values; the west, thanks to the cumulative influences of Greco-Roman thought, Judaism and Christianity, focus on human values and the values of individuals in a community, rather than the savage anonymous “values” of a tribe.

Until not so long ago, the Western world was pretty tribalistic as well.

The pre-modern West wasn't terribly different from the non-Western world today in that regard.

And today? Is the contrast between, say, Japan or Korea on the one hand and Holland or Sweden on the other really a contrast between savage tribalism and humane and healthy universalism?

97 posted on 09/15/2012 11:23:59 AM PDT by x
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To: x

Huh? Nobody said the Japanese or the Koreans were tribal. They are very ancestor linked, like the pre-Christian Romans, and of course also very class bound.

Tribalism was one of the first things conquered in Europe by Christianity. It took a long time - the further north they went, the more tribal the countries, with Germany being very, very tribal and hostile to Christianity until nearly the 9th century.

However, whatever its problems, Europe ceased to be tribal in many areas with the spread of Christianity and in many others tribalism was already on the decline because of the advance of Roman concepts of citizenship and nation.

It varied in the ME. Tribalism was also something that Judaism ended up fighting against as its concept of tribe expanded beyond that of blood and into those who accepted the Covenant (as Judaism finally began to admit converts, although this was certainly not without opposition). This, of course, was infinitely expanded by Christianity, which was the death of blood-based tribalism.

By the time of the Mohammed, the remaining tribal groups were mostly pagan. Mohammed came from one of these pagan tribes, and his syncretist religion combined tribalism (the special status of being one of his descendants, through one line or another) and beliefs in Arab superiority with the realization that a religious cult provided the best way of subduing other tribes or even states in the undefended, post-Roman world.


108 posted on 09/15/2012 2:54:00 PM PDT by livius
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