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To: little jeremiah; manc; xzins; wagglebee; AmericanInTokyo; napscoordinator; Dr. Brian Kopp; ...
20 posted on Mon Sep 10 2012 16:58:30 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by little jeremiah: “You know, manc - I would think there are some in Britain who do give a crap and are thinking about what course of action to take. Look how the Netherlands practically went to hell with Muslims, and look what Geert Wilder and his supporters have accomplished. They are now rolling back the Muslim invasion. I think people in the US are also getting fed up to the back teeth with this and like crap. I am not without hope, at all. The more the muzzies/commies/faggots play their hand, the clearer the evil is, and the easier it is for regular people to see it and finally say ‘Enough is enough!’”

I am not unfamiliar with Dutch political history and modern political issues. I understand your point about what happens when average moderate conservatives wake up and find out what radical Muslims, Communists and homosexual activists are advocating.

However, citing Geert Wilders and his pro-homosexual political party is a better example of proving how sins cancel each other out than it is of any sort of Christian resurgence or even generically moral resurgence in the Netherlands.

Socialism doesn't work. Neither does toleration for radical Islam, or an emphasis on uncontrolled immigration combined with multiculturalism. The modern right wing in Europe is largely composed of secular conservatives of a libertarian stripe who have realized that, and are using secular conservative weapons to fight back.

Wilders’ party is largely based on the foundation of the former Pim Fortuyn List, whose openly homosexual founder was killed for his opposition to Islam. To quote Wilders himself, in an interview with the German publication Der Spiegel: “I want to provoke a discussion. Certain Koranic verses have moved their followers to commit the most abhorrent acts. Where is the imam who stands up in the Netherlands and says, for us, homosexuals are entitled to equal rights and everyone has the right to abandon their faith.”

How many people on Free Republic would want to say that? Few of us want to see homosexuals executed, let alone killed on the streets by Muslim mobs, but if any of us were saying “homosexuals are entitled to equal rights” on Free Republic we would quickly get asked important questions about whether we support homosexual marriage or just say homosexuals should have the same rights guaranteed to anyone else by the Constitution, i.e., not to be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.

There is no question that Wilders is opposed to Islam. He's more or less okay on economics, and I'll cut him some slack on his economic views because of the Dutch welfare state — in his context, he wants to move in the right direction from a place far more leftist than anything we have today in America. However, when it comes to homosexuality, he is in full support of a much more radical homosexual agenda than we have in most of the Democratic Party in the United States, and he advocates that based on what we would call libertarian principles of personal freedom without state involvement in private lives.

Wilders, Marine Le Pen, and similar politicians do represent a resurgence of a certain type of conservatism, but it is a conservatism that in the United States would be more like that of John McCain than like what is supported by most on Free Republic. I'm well aware of the differences between Wilders and the other “far right” political parties of Europe such as Haider in Austria and to a lesser extent the French National Front — Wilders is not a fascist by any definition of the word, and is strongly pro-Israel — but my point is that Wilders is not a conservative by the American definition of the word.

Things are so bad in Europe that maybe only libertarian secular conservatives have any chance of winning this war. However, when I talk to Dutch Christians who want to make common cause with that sort of ideology, I remind them of how much damage was caused to the Gereformeerde Bond, the Christelijke Gereformeerde Kerken in Nederland, and especially the Gereformeerde Gemeenten when too many Christian conservatives in the 1940s decided to make common cause with the Dutch Nazis in fighting Communism.

Much of the support in the United States for Geert Wilders is coming from people like David Horowitz who support Wilders because of his agenda against radical Islam, and who view Wilders as a co-belligerent in their fight to defend Israel. I understand why David Horowitz and other pro-Israel groups are supporting Geert Wilders. If I were in their shoes and if my primary goal were supporting Jewish causes and Israel, and if I were working to do so in radically secular environments such as that of Europe, I would probably do the same thing.

I certainly support Israel and will not criticize the efforts of others who want to support Israel. However, in a nation like the United States where Christianity is still a major influence, we need to choose our allies very, very carefully when we're dealing with non-Christian conservatives. Our agenda is not identical to that of Horowitz, though we're usually going to agree with him, though not always with Horowitz's secular conservative allies. Alliances are unavoidable, but we must always be aware of where we differ because it will limit how far two people who are not fully agreed can walk together (cf. Amos 3:3).

Here are some articles on Geert Wilders and his political party which show what his movement advocates, as well as some its problems. I think Freepers need to regard Wilders movement as a group of people who have been targeted by people who are also our enemies, namely, Islamofascists, but the enemy of our enemy is not always our friend.

Geert Wilders the big loser as Dutch voters put stability before intolerance
by Araminta Wordsworth
National Post Staff
Sep 14, 2012 8:30 AM ET

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/14/far-rightist-geert-wilders-the-big-loser-as-dutch-voters-head-for-the-centre/

DECKER: 5 Questions with Geert Wilders: ‘Islam is an ideology aiming for world domination’
By Brett M. Decker
The Washington Times
Friday, September 14, 2012

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/14/geert-wilders-5-questions-with-decker/

Dutch lawmaker brings his crusade against Islam to conservative confab
By Ernest Luning
THE COLORADO STATESMAN
7/6/2012

http://www.coloradostatesman.com/content/993597-dutch-lawmaker-brings-his-crusade-against-islam-conservative-confab

U.S. groups helped fund Dutch anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders
By Anthony Deutsch and Mark Hosenball
Reuters | Sep 10, 2012 5:10 PM ET

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/10/u-s-groups-helped-fund-dutch-anti-islam-politician-geert-wilders/

Anti-Islamic political leader Geert Wilders comes to Canada
By National Post Staff
May 5, 2011 6:00 AM ET

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/05/anti-islamic-political-leader-geert-wilders-comes-to-canada/

Jonathan Kay: Geert Wilders’ problem with Islam
By Jonathan Kay
National Post
May 8, 2011 7:48 PM ET

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/05/08/jonathan-kay-no-distinction-between-islam-and-islamism-for-geert-wilders/

‘Moderate Islam Is a Contradiction’
Right-wing Dutch politician Geert Wilders wanted to provoke an international scandal with his anti-Islam film “Fitna.” He succeeded. He talks to SPIEGEL about his crusade against Islam.
3/31/2008

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/spiegel-interview-with-dutch-populist-geert-wilders-moderate-islam-is-a-contradiction-a-544347.html

‘I don't hate Muslims. I hate Islam,’ says Holland's rising political star
Geert Wilders, the popular MP whose film on Islam has fuelled the debate on race in Holland, wants an end to mosque building and Muslim immigration. Ian Traynor met him in The Hague
By Ian Traynor
The Observer
Saturday 16 February 2008

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/17/netherlands.islam

30 posted on 09/15/2012 12:28:08 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina; All

Thank you very much for your detailed and informative reply.

Well worth reading for everyone.

I had read that Wilder was tolerant or pro-homosexual agenda, but I had not realized to what extent. Definitely not worth emulating or learning from in that regard; just his courageous opposition to Islamic aggression.


31 posted on 09/15/2012 2:01:50 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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