Replies

No pay - what a crock. My uncle is a former bishop - he got plenty, to reimburse his “expenses”. Romney’s family goes back to the beginning of Mormonism, he is as ingrained as one can be. Now that my uncle (the former bishop one) is elderly, he asked his now bishop permission to do all kinds of things. An example, when my son preached for the first time, I asked him and my aunt to join us, his words “I need to ask my bishop”, he called back “sorry we will not be there”. My youngest’s Mormon friend from work had to ask for permission to attend church, her bishop said yes, but ONLY because my child had gone to ward with her. Please, these are simple things, don’t try and tell us Romney did not ask for permission to run for governor or president.

Well, guess you have to believe what you want to, but I have been a Bishop, I have been a counselor to a Bishop, I have served on the High Council in a Stake, and I know dozens and dozens of men who are or have been Bishops. Not a single one currently receives or historically received a dime for his service.

My family goes back further than Romney's. I have ancestors who lived in the home of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, took care of his farm, etc. So....

I ran for a statewide office. I asked permission of no one and certainly of no Church leader. That was my decision along with that of my wife, alone. The same as every other major and minor personal, professional and academic decision I have made in life.

The Mormon haters on this board are living in a virtual dream world of their own creation. Your imaginations about the cult of obedience of the Mormon Church have no basis in reality, regardless of what you think your uncle and former bishop told you.

Then I will assume my uncle (the former bishop) lied about his “expenses” and that he could not attend church with me to hear my son.
I will just assume then my child's friend lied as well.
So we are left with two opposing statements they were telling the truth and Mormonism is that controlling or they were lying.
Interesting dilemma isn't it.

Wait, there could be a third, and that would be your view.

“The Mormon haters on this board are living in a virtual dream world of their own creation. Your imaginations about the cult of obedience of the Mormon Church have no basis in reality, regardless of what you think your uncle and former bishop told you.”

So your family was one of the first to be conned by Joseph Smith. Congratulations. Not that I should boast. Mine is filled with drunks and schizophrenics.

“Lying for the Lord
The following was written by Ken Clark for MormonThink. Ken worked full time for the LDS Church Education System (CES) for 27 years. He also served as a bishop; a calling he enjoyed as much as full time instructor and Coordinator for the Church Education System. He loved (and still loves) the students and the ward members. His story can be found here.

Ken gave an excellent presentation on Lying for the Lord at the 2008 ExMormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. Lying for the Lord on You Tube.

“The right to lie in the service of your own interests is highly valued and frequently exercised”-Nero Wolfe
I began this list when I was a full time employee of the LDS Church Education System (CES). I worked as a Seminary Principal/teacher, Institute teacher/Director, and Stake CES Coordinator from 1975 - 2002. My last assignment was brief. I signed a Letter of Agreement with CES to serve as the Director of the Pullman, Washington LDS Institute of Religion adjacent to Washington State University in July 2002. I resigned from CES a month later. I carry fond memories of the students, ward leaders and others I grew to respect in the LDS Church. I started this list in an effort to defend the church from its detractors. I was insulted that critics accused LDS church leaders of dishonesty. I “knew” the criticisms could not be true.

As an informal defender, I discovered that those accusing the church leaders of being dishonest sometimes had the facts on their side (when I took the time to check). I dealt with the cognitive dissonance by pointing out that (1) all organizations are run by humans and if you search hard enough, of course you’ll find a few isolated examples of deception; and (2) since the leaders are human, they will err on occasion. I guessed there may have been occasional isolated examples of premeditated deception but it was not a pattern or standard practice.

Sometimes I caught myself revealing less than the whole truth, or embellishing in order to defend the church. I noticed that other members often did the same thing. I gave myself permission to be slightly dishonest because I was defending God’s one true church; or so I reasoned. Eventually I decided to let the lives and sermons of the church leaders speak for themselves. If detractors were right some of the time, the church and I would deal with it.

I believed a list of prevarications presented in the proper context would prove that lying wasn’t actually lying. Instead the list would prove that a perceived lie was probably a misunderstanding, a remark out of context or a deliberate misinterpretation of historical events. My belief was that those who accused church leaders with deception were deceivers themselves; they twisted words and took remarks out of context. But as I read more church history my list grew, and at some point it occurred to me that a pattern of institutionalized deception had been established by Joseph Smith. Subsequent church leaders, including those who serve currently, followed Smith’s example of lying to protect the church. The growing evidence pointed to a standard practice.

Evidence presented in this essay establishes that when the church image or its leaders needed protection it was and is, okay to fib, deceive, distort, inflate, minimize, exaggerate, prevaricate or lie. You will read quotations by church leaders who admitted that deception is a useful tool to protect the church and its leaders “when they are in a tight spot,” or “to beat the devil at his own game.” They admit engaging in moral gymnastics; that God approves of deception - if it’s done to protect the “Lord’s Church” or “the brethren” as the leaders are called.

I was stunned after I learned these uncomfortable truths. I had naively believed that when church leaders transgressed, they followed the required steps of repentance, as taught to members and investigators. I believed they had the courage to face their mistakes and confess their shortcomings, no matter what the consequences; to live the same standards they set for the members. I believed they were completely honest.

D. Michael Quinn called the use of deception by LDS church leaders, “theocratic ethics.” (The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, page 112) Smith lied to protect himself or the church; which was an extension of himself. Dan Vogel in his excellent work, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, described Smith’s viewpoint; he was a pious deceiver. Smith used deception if in his mind; it resulted in a good outcome. Smith had Moroni, an ancient American prophet and custodian of the gold plates declare, “And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. ( Moroni 4:11-12). Translation: if deception was necessary to do good, or bring a soul to Christ, then it was worth it, as long as God approves. Smith believed he knew when God approved of lying.

Smith believed God also approved of murder if it was for a good cause. He wrote in the Book of Mormon that Nephi was inspired by God (1 Nephi 4:6) to deceive and capture a servant; and then murder another man in order to secure an ancient historical record on brass plates. And in Missouri, Smith and his counselor Sidney Rigdon threatened to kill Mormon’s who disagreed with Smith’s policies and initiatives (Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, Chapter 3, “Theocratic Beginnings,” 79-103).

Smith re-wrote scripture to demonstrate that God had ordered the prophet Abraham to lie to protect himself and his wife Sarah from harm (Abraham 2:23-25).

Before becoming a prophet, Smith’s chosen profession relied on deception to earn a living. He assured clients that he could see underground treasure using a magic stone in the bottom of his hat and clients paid him to locate hidden gold using this method. He never did of course. Smith’s arrest, trial and conviction in Bainbridge, NY for fraud in 1826 documented his activity. He was found guilty of glass looking. The modern term for Smith would be a con artist. (Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 82-86). Modern scams operate on a similar principle Smith used to separate people from their money.”

The rests at: http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm

Wordy, wordy, wordy, without really saying anything, we get it, you ran for office unsuccessfully and were a Bishop.

The Romneys are Mormon royalty and perhaps it’s biggest cash cow, and is a powerful family even in the normal world, a Mormon bridge to government power, your family isn’t and hasn’t, the difference of about 30 months of when your families started serving Joseph Smith is meaningless, the Romneys committed and made the journey from England specifically to serve him.

Romney did ask permission of his Prophet, but then, he plays in the Mormon big leagues, millions of dollars from the Romneys go in, and Romney benefits hugely.

The Mormon haters on this board are living in a virtual dream world of their own creation.

While...

...MORMONism lovers have been deceived by a demonic deception of the highest order.

Th MORMONism lovers have been deceived by a demonic deception of the highest order.

Satan doesn't want to take away your weapon...

Satan doesn't want to damage your cross bow...

Satan doesn't want to warp your arrows...

Satan doesn't want to take away your ammo...

Satan doesn't want to keep you from arming your bow...

Satan doesn't want to keep you from aiming at Heaven...

Satan doesn't want to keep you from pressing the trigger..

Satan doesn't want to keep you from calculating the wind speed or elevation changes...

Satan merely wants you to MISS THE MARK after you shoot.

Your imaginations about the cult of obedience of the Mormon Church have no basis in reality, regardless of what you think your uncle and former bishop told you.

Zat so?

The Rules

Learn and obey all missionary rules.
Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
Don't debate or argue.
Center your mind on your mission.
Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
Cut your hair regularly.
Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
Be neat and clean.
Bathe frequently.
Use deodorant.
Polish your shoes.
Iron your shirt and business suit.
Arise at 6:30 A.M.
Study for 2 hours every morning.
Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
Exercise regularly.
Write in your journal regularly.
Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
Stay with your companion during all activities.
Do not go on road trips.
Do not leave your assigned area without permission
Do not watch television.
Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
Do not listen to the radio.
Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
Do not participate in musical groups.
Do not participate in athletic teams.
Do not sponsor athletic teams.
Do not engage in contact sports.
Do not engage in water sports.
Do not engage in winter sports.
Do not engage in motorcycling.
Do not engage in horseback riding.
Do not engage in mountain climbing.
Do not embark on a private boat.
Do not embark in a private airplane.
Do not handle firearms.
Do not handle explosives.
Do not swim.
Do not play full court basketball.
Do not play basketball in leagues.
Do not play basketball in tournaments.
You may play half-court basketball.
Never be alone.
Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
Be loyal to your companion.
Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
Pray with your companion every day.
Study with your companion every day.
Plan your work with your companion every day.
Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
Do not arise before your companion.
Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
Do not flirt.
Do not date.
Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
Do not telephone parents
Do not telephone relatives.
Do not telephone friends.
Do not telephone girlfriends.
Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
Take problems and questions to your mission president.
Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
Obey all mission rules.
Obey the laws of the land.
Do not get involved in politics.
Do not get involved in commercial activities.
Do not give any information about the area.
Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
Be courteous.
Provide community service.
Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
Your mission president must approve your housing.
Keep your housing unit clean.
Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
Maintain your health.
Eat a healthy diet.
Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
Follow the approved exercise program.
Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
Be immunized.
Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
Budget your money carefully.
Keep a record of what you spend.
Do not spend more than your companion.
Do not loan money.
Do not borrow money.
Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
Pay your bills before leaving an area.
Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
Do not waste money on souvenirs.
Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
Be a frugal photographer.
Do not accumulate excess baggage.
Obey custom laws and regulations.
Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
Do not drive without a license.
Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
Do not drive members’ cars.
Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
Use cars only on approved mission business.
Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
Be conscious of safety at all times.
Drive defensively.
Wear your seat belt.
Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
Know bicycle safety rules.
Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
Go directly to your new area when transferred.
Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

Zat so?

Temple Recommend Questions

1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

Are you SURE???

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University) http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

It seems that MORMONs are NOT very 'obedient' after all!

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)