Posted on 04/05/2012 8:34:17 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
Britain's Royal Air Force considering purchase of Israeli unmanned aerial vehicle
U.K. looking at the Eitan system, also known as the Heron TP - the largest and most sophisticated drone Israel makes.
LONDON - Britain's Royal Air Force has been considering the purchase of unmanned aerial vehicles from Israel.
The Eitan, also known as the Heron TP, is the largest and most sophisticated drone Israel makes. It is assembled by Israel Aerospace Industries and began operational service in the Israel Air Force two years ago, in a new squadron at the Tel Nof airbase.
The Eitan's wingspan is as wide as a Boeing 737 airliner and it can stay in the air for up to forty hours, carrying out long-range missions at 40 thousand feet, hundreds of kilometers away from base, broadcasting back real-time footage of wide areas. According to foreign sources, the Eitan also carries out missions over Iran.
Israeli and British security sources have confirmed in recent days that the Royal Air Force has been considering buying a number of Eitan systems, since the Mantis, a joint British-French unmanned strategic project, has been delayed and will not be operational before 2020.
No official request has yet been made by the British Ministry of Defense and for now, the RAF is only making initial examinations and is also considering American UAVs and continuing its manned surveillance flights while waiting for the Mantis.
A purchase of an Israeli military system will surely cause protests by pro-Palestinian organizations. Today, Israel buys very little military products from Britain due to export limits placed in the past by the British foreign ministry.
If the RAF selects the Eitan, it will be the second Israeli UAV bought by the British,
(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...
So basically what you are saying is Israel should just swallow their pride, bend over and pick up whatever crumbs UK is throwing at them in the name of “trade” with the faint hope that it may help Britain turn away from vicious anti-semitism.
And why? Because Britain, in your opinion, is too important to ignore. I don't know if you realize this but Britain’s exaggerated sense of self importance makes it a laughing stock to the rest of the world. If you have forgotten, Nicolas Sarkozy recently described UK as a “country with no industry”. An he wasn't just taking a cheap shot. Britain is barely able to keep its economy, industry, military and navy afloat.
An even otherwise, I dont see any reason why Israel needs to suck up to a country that is already kinda hostile. That kind of appeasement and kowtowing is always naive and counter productive. UK is deeply entrenched in the Muslim world with a huge immigrant Muslim population and with their oil/arms trade with Saudi Arabia an other Muslim countries for this UCAV deal to to have any impact. Britain will always have vested interests in Arab middle east which will always weigh in more then whatever Israel has to offer.
And then, there is still that arms embargo against Israel. (On a side note..... UK goes out of its way to violate MTRC statutes to sell long range Storm Shadow missile to Saudi Arabia.) All said and done, if UK's oil supply were to stop or UK's muslims were pissed again.... UK’s “butthurt” would be a lot more then not receiving a few military UCAVs.
“It deals with Israel as an ally, and sells £xbillion of arms to Israel every year.”
Yeah ally. And then there is that minor niggle about arms embargo”.
” And we are the fifth biggest arms exporter. “
And the only reason for that is Saudi Arabia.
“Britain traditionally has sold a lot of military equipment to the less volatile nations “
Lets see what “less volatile nations” would that be..... Britain sold £16.4m worth of arms to Egypt in 2009. In 2009, over £27 million military and dual-use materials were sold to Libya, same in Algeria and Democratic Republic of Congo. UK supplied weapons to the Indonesian government even during the bloody campaign in Ache province and in the past supplied weapons to Saddam Hussein. All of them "less volatile" right?
Ok, so please tell us..... what in your opinion should be the right amount “pro-Israel” attitude to have?
” Britain was stuck with the thankless task of juggling the rival ambitions of Jew and Arab in the Palestine Mandate, and inevitably not every decision went the Israelis way.”
Yes Britain always found itself burdened with thankless job of juggling the rival ambitions of Jew and Arab, Indians and Pakistanis. And of course Britain never had any of their own machination in how they played their political cards in all of this, right?
I don’t care about the US giving aid to Israel, other than that I am glad that it isn’t my taxmoney being robbed in the name of charity. You criticised Britain for selling advanced weapons systems to Saudi Arabia, America does the exact same thing. What America gives to Israel in aid is irrelevant, it doesn’t change the fact that they are selling more high-res gear to the Saudis than we are. Do you think that Britain is somehow honour-bound to pay tribute to the Israelis to soothe their butthurt over arms sales to Arab nations?
Israel doesn’t desperately need Britain on its side, but given Israel’s precarious lack of friends and unenviable strategic weakness, its own interests are best served in trying to make friends, not engaging in petty spite.
Now, try and imagine, if you can, you are a grown-up for a second. What has Israel got to gain? Israel’s defence sector would receive a boost by selling this weapons system to the UK that would help fuel the Israeli economy, contribute towards allowing the defence sector to expand in size and capability, and form trade and military links that will gain the Israelis a measure of political influence in Whitehall.
Of course, Britain could just maintain all its important trading links with the Arabs, but if that is the case, it isn’t suprising if Britain will tend to support the Arab world if it is almost completely in their interests to do so. This is what countries do. They look after their own interests. Israel, if it has grown-ups in charge of sound mind and with an IQ in treble digits, will understand what I am saying and will be keen to promote trade, military and political links with other countries in order to dilute Arab influence over them.
Your argument against selling this UCAV to Britain is based on emotionalism and irrationality, mine in favour is based on logic and reason.
You are glad? Your own British tax money has long been robbed in more ways then whatever Israel could have taken out of American taxmoney. You should know that.
“America does the exact same thing. What America gives to Israel in aid is irrelevant, it doesn’t change the fact that they are selling more high-res gear to the Saudis than we are.”
America does a lot more to keep Israeli military edge way above any county in the middle east. Tell me what UK does for Israel? The correct answer is ....nothing.
“Do you think that Britain is somehow honour-bound to pay tribute to the Israelis to soothe their butthurt over arms sales to Arab nations?”
Exactly! Britain is a Muslim tool. So why would you care? You would rather bend over backwards to stick another embargo to soothe the Arabs butthurt over Israel. (Remember Gaza war when UK slapped embargo on Hermes drone engines supply?) Yeah!
“Israel doesn’t desperately need Britain on its side, but iven Israel’s precarious lack of friends “
Barring the Muslim countries, Israel actually has plenty of friends.
“Your argument against selling this UCAV to Britain is based on emotionalism and irrationality, mine in favour is based on logic and reason.”
My argument is very much based on logic and reason. Just because you haven't been able to figure it out doesn't mean there isn't any. Its is a bad idea to sell weapons to a hostile country. Its is not emotionalism or irrationality, (and I am not against trade in general) but it is plain short sighted and criminally stupid to sell weapons (of all things) to a hostile country. Israel should have learned her lesson with respect to Turkey by now. Its a tad too late to suspend military sales to Turkey now. Regardless of your lame logic, appeasing enemies with weapons has always proved to be a bad idea and has always been more costly in the long run. And Britain doest even have a huge weapon import market for Israel to lose much. At least nothing they cannot recover by selling to other friendly countries elsewhere.
Yes I know, but in this instance, at least I can be glad that this is not one of those instances. America does a lot more to keep Israeli military edge way above any county in the middle east. Tell me what UK does for Israel? The correct answer is ....nothing.
Again, you seem to be missing the point here. You are the one who believes Israel is entitled to foreign charity, I do not. Exactly! Britain is a Muslim tool. So why would you care? You would rather bend over backwards to stick another embargo to soothe the Arabs butthurt over Israel. (Remember Gaza war when UK slapped embargo on Hermes drone engines supply?) Yeah!
So instead of a Arab tool, Britain should be an Israeli tool? Britain should be following its own interests, same as any other nation. Barring the Muslim countries, Israel actually has plenty of friends.
What, the US? If it wasn't for America's unqualified support, Israel would have been invaded and annihilated long ago, this much is obvious. Relying almost entirely on one country to stop your country falling into the precipice is a very bad strategic place to be. Quite apart from the fact that that country's attitude towards you could change drastically over the course of a single election, relying so heavily on one country means that that country has you completely by the balls, which it can squeeze to get them to fall into line with international policies that might not otherwise be in Israel's interests. Israel's interests would be better served by trying to diversify its level of international support. It particularly needs to court the nations of Europe, including Britain, which are unfortunately heavily influenced by Arab interests. The European nations have, despite what the pro-palestinians would like put across, much in common with Israel, which is an oasis of European-style pluralistic parliamentary democracy literally amidst a sandy desert of tinpont military dictators, fundamentalist theocracies and autocratic monarchies. Israel needs to be reaching out to these countries in order to solidify and diversify its international support. This potential arms deal is an opportunity for Israel to build vital links with one of the three most powerful European countries, along with France and Germany. Despite your personal opinion of Britain, it is still a diplomatically well-connected, politically, economically and militarily significant nation and in the absence of an overwhelming strategic conflict of interest, it makes more sense to be a friend of Britain than an enemy. Britain is not an enemy of Israel, despite what you think. I wouldn't exactly describe Anglo-Israeli relations as warm, but to classify the two nations as 'enemies' is hyperbole. Israel is not undermining its own strategic interests by selling this UCAV to Britain, it is only enhancing them, providing the deal goes ahead.
Exactly the same attitude as we have with any other democratic nation whose immediate interests do not directly coincide with our own, in other words, we give them the benefit of the doubt against the corrupt and the dictatorial. I support Israel, because I think their claims to statehood have far more legal validity than the vague claims the Arabs have to destroy them. But at the same time, if they do something I think is wrong, I'm going to call them on it. I don't care if people think that is "antisemitic". That phrase is not some magic wand that makes them immune to all criticism. And, at the same time, if Britain chooses to sell weapon systems to a third party, thats our business. If Israel doesn't like it, they can raise an objection. Similarly, we would like to buy an Israeli weapon system - for hard cash. If they don't want to sell it, or we can't agree on terms, then they don't have to do it. We will go elsewhere.
Yes Britain always found itself burdened with thankless job of juggling the rival ambitions of Jew and Arab, Indians and Pakistanis. And of course Britain never had any of their own machination in how they played their political cards in all of this, right?
On the contrary! Britain had plenty of their own machinations in all this! Absolutely! Damn right we did! Guilty as charged 100%! I elect my representatives to primarily look after MY interests, not the interests of Jews and Arabs, Indians and Pakistanis - or Americans for that matter. I'm not saying ethics and morality and fair play and right and wrong don't come into the decision making process - I'm sure they do - but primarily the British government is (and should be) looking out for Britain. That is, after all, what they are elected to do. Their effectiveness in doing that is certainly how they are going to be judged come next election.
Actually I am glad this IS one of those instances. I would any day have my tax money go to a country that is fighting an existential battle against Islam then have it go to a lazy ass Muzzy who wants to bring Shariyat into Londonistan or elsewhere. But hey, suit yourself!
“ You are the one who believes Israel is entitled to foreign charity, I do not. “
Nope. I didn't say they are entitled to foreign aid. Since you are pointing finger at US, I am just telling you what US is doing for them. Clearly you don't have a response to that.
“ So instead of a Arab tool, Britain should be an Israeli tool? Britain should be following its own interests, same as any other nation. ”
By that, I believe you mean ....suck up to the Muslims.
“ If it wasn't for America's unqualified support, Israel would have been invaded and annihilated long ago, this much is obvious.”
You obviously don't know the obvious. Israel is still the only country with nukes, in the middle east. Long before Israel is annihilated, the middle east would get nuked.
As for friends....according to a study carried out by Israel's foreign ministry, the most pro-Israel countries in the world are India, US, Russia, Mexico and China...in that order. (The biggest and most powerful countries in the world). And guess who comes at the bottom of the list? Britain, France and Spain...the trash heap of failing Europe.
And you are saying Israel should court Europe, especially Britain? Europe, especially Britain, will turn into Arabia very soon. Why should Israel waste time?
“ Despite your personal opinion of Britain, it is still a diplomatically well-connected, politically, economically and militarily significant nation ”
You make me laugh everytime you blow hot air about Britain’s importance to the world. You need to stop.
I don't think you can be more out of touch with reality. You are basically implying the only friends one can have are Muslim friends and if you don't have them then you have no friends. (And obviously UK has plenty of Muslim friends).
European nations are Israel’s closest neighbours outside of the Middle East. I agree that there is a lot of anti-Israeli sentiment in Europe, but Israel should be doing its part to reach out to Europe. It needs to court European nations as allies and counter Arab and Muslim influence. How is it supposed to do that by adopting your kind of hostile, petulant attitude?
I have to say, I have strong reason to disagree with Mexico being amongst the ‘worlds most powerful countries’. It is a lawless narco-republic, Americans should know this better than anyone.
I also have to laugh at Russia being pro-Israeli when they are the staunchest supporters and defenders of Syria and Iran, the very two muslim countries that are the most implacably hostile to Israel and the ones that actively support and sponsor terrorist attacks against Israel.
As for China, I’m aware they are on pretty good terms with Israel, because the latter has sold China a lot of high-tech defence equipment to them over the years, despite a lot of Americans on this very forum raging against Israel’s ‘betrayal’ (when in fact they were only looking out for their own interests, which is natural).
However, what I don’t really understand is what your agenda is here. What is it that you want? Do you want Israel to have poor relations with Britain and the rest of Europe? Notwithstanding the current economic crisis, the European nations are still powerful potential allies diplomatically, politically, militarily and economically, and they are right in Israel’s back yard. It makes more sense for Israel to try and build bridges and gain influence in Europe. Your idea of great Israeli policy is to spite Britain and the rest of Europe and drive them further into the hands of the Arabists. I just wonder what it is exactly that you hope to achieve by Israel boycotting Britain, other than gain some spiteful revenge for British embargos on weapons sales during times of rising tensions. All that would achieve is to strengthen the hands of the Arabists. Does it not enter your head that by being responsible for supplying important aspect of Britain’s military assets, Israel would have an ace up its sleeve to counter the influence of Arabists who put pressure on Whitehall to place these embargos on Israel in the first place?
See #20.
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